Britain and the EU

kabayiri

Generali wrote: »

I would counter that with the point that most people have probably made up their minds about the merits or otherwise of being in the EEC/EC/EU after 40 years.
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I'm not sure.

The rate of news items which relate to the EU has ramped up dramatically in recent months.

The undecideds may be influenced by all the news. The general news tone is mostly negative too.

leveller2911

Generali wrote: »

I don't see how quitting the EU resolves that problem, if anything it makes it worse. At least the EU has a series of structures and institutions, albeit flawed ones, which enable decisions to be made in some kind of an organised way.

There are no easy answers however every single migrant entering the EU with around 1.5 million going to Germany alone means they can apply for citizenship and with citizenship comes freedom of movement throughout the EU. I'm not suggesting every single one will want to come to the UK but in leaving the EU then the UK can control its border and choose who we allow in.

With regards to the migrant crisis what specific decisions have been made and agreed to by all member states?. The truth is they have been warned about the inpending migrant crisis for 18 months and yet we still don't have a coherant plan or agreement for that matter. All we have had is Germany unilaterally making a decision to open its borders which has put huge pressure on the smaller countries and then Germany put passport checks back up on their borders.

Generali

CLAPTON wrote: »

hard to describe Merkel's unilateral invite for the world to come to Germany as a 'kind of organised way'.

Easy to pick a single news story and insinuate that it is in some way typical of how things are organised.

Anyway, the fact remains that the polls are showing that Britons are firmly in favour of remaining in the EU.

N1AK

Sapphire wrote: »

Understood, Generali. However, I do still think that the migrant invasion – which now extends even to migrants invading a British air base, something that I would have thought could be extremely dangerous for our security –

Even if your ridiculous use of 'invasion' was justified, it's hard to see exactly how leaving the EU will magically make it harder to reach our base on Cyprus by boat, but as with far too many anti-EU or anti-immigrant rants I was probably being naive in hoping for any rationality.

N1AK

kabayiri wrote: »

I'm not sure.

The rate of news items which relate to the EU has ramped up dramatically in recent months.

The undecideds may be influenced by all the news. The general news tone is mostly negative too.

A counter to that is that people generally vote for change when personal circumstances are bad. If the economy continues to improve, unemployment falls, and wage rises become more notable then people's desire for change will fall.

The difference is it's easy to find sources showing the economy improving, can you find an objective source that EU news is becoming higher profile and/or more negative?

Generali

leveller2911 wrote: »

There are no easy answers however every single migrant entering the EU with around 1.5 million going to Germany alone means they can apply for citizenship and with citizenship comes freedom of movement throughout the EU. I'm not suggesting every single one will want to come to the UK but in leaving the EU then the UK can control its border and choose who we allow in.

With regards to the migrant crisis what specific decisions have been made and agreed to by all member states?. The truth is they have been warned about the inpending migrant crisis for 18 months and yet we still don't have a coherant plan or agreement for that matter. All we have had is Germany unilaterally making a decision to open its borders which has put huge pressure on the smaller countries and then Germany put passport checks back up on their borders.

It sounds to me like the solution to the problem of states acting alone is more integration not less.

If there was a common policy on immigration to the EU then the problem of unilateral action by member states would be resolved.

Sapphire

leveller2911 wrote: »

It is linked to the EU membership because the migrant crisis has bought to the surface the problems with the total lack of a coherant political system and decision making process. The EU is like a huge oil tanker, its slow,cumbersom and take an eternity to change tack and turn around. This along with the way in which the Merkal has acted unilaterally on the migrant issue has caused a long term rift within the EU. When the Germans and French tell small Eastern European states to tow the line or their subsidies could be at risk has put a huge question mark over the democracy of the EU and its future path.

Indeed – these are the things that are bothering many people, both here and on the Continent. It is outrageous that Merkel and Juncker can threaten small eastern European countries, which have already had far too much of brutal invasion in their histories (not experienced before in countries like the UK, hence the complacency of some), in the way they have done. It was only when Merkel came back from holiday (illegal migrants had already been pouring into countries that are ill equipped to take them for months by then), that she suddenly pronounced, without consulting the rest of the EU including her own citizens, that the EU would take these people and would issue 'quotas'. A terrible decision, which is now having severe repercussions for the whole of Europe. If she wanted to import people to work in the German economy, why on earth didn't she apply directly in Turkey, by placing ads there, for example?

There have been wars and poverty around the world throughout history. However, the difference is that in the past millions and potentially billions of people did not invade other countries with a completely different way of life and culture to try and benefit from them in one way or another. In the UK, we've had successive waves of migrants throughout our history, but these have largely settled successfully, benefitted our country and contributed to its vitality. However, these waves were relatively small and composed of people amenable to our way of life, and in the past there was far more work that people could do here.

In this case, apart from the threats to the culture and safety of the invaded countries, little mention is being made about just how much each migrant costs a country, not just initially, but far into the future. Many in the UK whinge and moan about being 'poor' and 'deserving more' (including on these forums), but if millions of people were allowed into Europe, the situation would get much, much worse in this respect. Few of those attempting to get into Europe would be able to work (if this is what they want to do) in the UK, even if they could find ever-decreasing work here. What would those largely strong and healthy males do then?

There are already big demonstrations on the Continent against the migrant invasion – the situation will only get worse the longer it is allowed to continue. ISIS said it would flood Europe with illegal migrants, including its people, and it is fulfilling its ambition while Europe is weak and does nothing but encourage the flood.

Sooner or later the invasion will have to be stopped – sadly, the longer it continues, the harsher the measures that will need to be taken to halt it.

CLAPTON

Generali wrote: »

It sounds to me like the solution to the problem of states acting alone is more integration not less.

If there was a common policy on immigration to the EU then the problem of unilateral action by member states would be resolved.

sounds a bit like the solution to problems of socialist planning is more better socialist planning.

the whole EU/Eurozone management after the financial meltdown and specifically how Greece was treated, was/is down to Germany and not the EU/euro zone members

Generali

CLAPTON wrote: »

sounds a bit like the solution to problems of socialist planning is more better socialist planning.

the whole EU/Eurozone management after the financial meltdown and specifically how Greece was treated, was/is down to Germany and not the EU/euro zone members

Quite the reverse. You seem to be arguing that the solution to countries acting unilaterally is more unilateralism. It's bizarre frankly.

kabayiri

N1AK wrote: »

A counter to that is that people generally vote for change when personal circumstances are bad. If the economy continues to improve, unemployment falls, and wage rises become more notable then people's desire for change will fall.
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Combine this with the fact that the public memory is fairly short.

If personal conditions are good in the few months leading up to the referendum, and little is happening in the news on the European front, then people might assume everything is okay now.

E.g, the Greek financial crisis rarely gets a mention now, yet nothing has really been resolved.