Deadline from Debt collectors approaching

Redx

Palec wrote: »

Freddy, what would you do in this stage, pay £60 which would cover their actual loss and it was initial penalty or wait for court papers and argue the case?

wait for court papers and argue the case

its not a penalty (or a fine), its an INVOICE

Palec wrote: »

Do you think that judge could cancel penalty because of mitigating factors?
.

its not a PENALTY , its an INVOICE

Palec wrote: »

Do you think that judge could cancel penalty because of mitigating factors?
My defence would be:
A: I was not feeling well to drive, bought another ticket, found out have penalty.
I can prove that it was 8 minutes only.
Actual loss to landowner exceeds the sum requested =£100 or £160
The landowner has changed, so nowadays I do not owe anything and PPS do not have their machines there...
I suggested to come to conclusion by paying £10 back in 2014 which was refused ( the truth is it was after Popla, so they had to pay those 27 because I appealed).

Do you believe judge would cancel it or gave me certain amount to pay?

impossible to say what a judge would do, requires speculation and court is a lottery

of more importance is whether the claimant has legal standing, locus standii , to bring the case in the first place

also a landowner contract in place to enforce charging for invoice

also if POFA 2012 was adhered to , was the NTK compliant

lots of legal arguments that are nothing to do with mitigation, like illness

Palec wrote: »

1) Do you believe judge would cancel it or gave me certain amount to pay?

2) I am interested what ampersand would do if he would be me, too.

3) I am not dealing with debt collectors for sure anymore.

4) So I feel I have two options, send cheque for certain sum or wait what they suggest before court, or wait for court papers and negotiate the fine to be reduced, I am not sure if it could be cancelled in my case because of previous statements above and the facts...

Thank you for your opinion.

1) they may cancel it on various legal grounds and your defence would need to state those legal grounds, much stronger case than illness or mitigation , so no locus standii etc

if you lost, the judge would set the figure in the judgment and you have 28 days to pay it

2) "he" is a "she"

3) correct, IGNORE the debt collectors, nothing they can do

4) dont send a cheque, wait for court papers (if that ever happens), after 6 years its dead in the water

its not a fine , its an INVOICE

PPS could have cancelled it when you appealed, they didnt because they want £100 , not £10 or £2

popla wont cancel on mitigation, so the popla appeal should have been "in time" and contained legal arguments

a judge will consider mitigation, but the legal defence points should be used BEFORE mitigation , so mitigation would be mentioned but legal arguments would be prominent and try to get it struck out regardless

it may never get to court, up to now its all empty threats, bullying and harassment

Herzlos

Wait for court papers and defend them vigorously. You want to attack every possible basis of the invoice from a legal perspective (it's grossly disproportionate, the contract is invalid due to signage, you're not even liable due to POFA2012, they don't have the authority to issue or pursue, none of their costs are genuine, and that you paid for the extra time). You can add in a point about safety - you didn't feel safe to drive - but you want to make them prove that they are even allowed to bring it to court.

Edit: If they are claiming an 8 minute overstay, the BPA requires a "reasonable" grace period, which they won't disclose, but the council one is 10 minutes. so you can argue that your overstay was well within their own grace period and the fact they won't tell you also make the contract invalid (you can't agree to hidden clauses). Depending on how it's recorded (like ANPR, which records entry/exit) you can argue that you weren't parked for more than the hour, as finding a space is counted in the entry/exit time but isn't parking. There's a case reference you can use which is on here somewhere confirming that.

Then you can go into their failure to mitigate loss (a key component of civil cases), your overstay of 8 minutes arguably cost them nothing unless there was a queue of cars waiting to pay to park, so any expenses they've incurred trying to pursue you for a loss of nothing is failing to mitigate their loss and therefore unfair. Why should you compensate them for choosing to waste their money on something that wasn't worth pursuing? That's where a drop hands offer is involved; you appreciate that both parties have incurred a minimal cost so far, and that they will lose more than they stand to gain, so in the interested of mitigating losses you agree not to pursue them for your costs when you win, if they agree to just drop the whole thing. They'll never accept it but it makes you look more reasonable and them less reasonable to the court, which is important when you are claiming for your costs back (the court approved time @ £18/hour for preparation and research as well as any material costs like train fair or stationery).

Palec

Well so suggestion is not to pay anything because of legal facts, which to be honest are against me, as there was proper signage, my point is that I have cause landowner at a time loss of £0.12 or £0.17, so am not sure if the fact that it has changed owner is in my advantage or does not matter.
Illness well driver should not drive, but I think some dodgy drivers who misuse system could use this, but in my case is clear I bought another ticket for £1, so there is clear difference from expired ticket and new one 8 minutes, so no actual loss and I showed matter of goodwill and offered compensation back in 2014 which was refused...
On the other hand I am not !!!!!! so can read, and terms and conditions been written there including invoice ( I am changing this after reading some more threads from you guys, so thank you very much) for £60 and £100 subsequently if not paid within 14 days.
As for BPA that time for private carparks and grace period is connected with cases, when driver enters carpark, but does not pay ticket and they will issue ticket, in my case my ticket expired and this is not council where ( am not sure it is legalised nowadays ) suggested 10 minutes grace period, so I am being fair in here as for pros and cons in my case and what can be said in my favour and what could be used against me, which they used when I appealed to Popla with my legal argument that they have not suffered any actual loss except from few cents, which I can copy here if somebody is interested with their reply, but it seems standard reply based on driver enters into contract obliged to terms and condition on signs, which they took pictures and sent me via E-mail that been visible.
It seems to be 50/50, but 8 minutes is better than 1 hour or more, I could not mention any grace period or ethics...
That I was unwell is difficult to prove, so as for law it means nothing...
I must say it is frustrating, because from my point of view and what I am reading, some private companies do recruit people just to issue tickets for few minutes, sometimes only 2 minutes, which from my point of view is bullying for sure, probably drivers should ask for money back when they left after 50 minutes instead of staying 1 full hour and get refund for the value of 10minutesn?????
Take care everybody...:-)

Palec

Thank you Red x and Herzlos for your comments and reminder that Ampersad is she...:-)... ( I hope I remember it properly, cos she will tell me off for sure...).
Thank you everybody, well it seems to be complicated for judge if it goes to court, am not sure what is the percentage of wins for short overstayes, but win would be everything from £0 up to 60£, which was initially demanded by PPS. There is definitely need to change the law and do it like with councils and 10 minutes grace period...
Btw was that 10 minutes legalised or not please?????
Thank you
Night night

Palec

Have a nice weekend and if anyone has some sort of advice especially connected with grace time up to 10 minutes on private car parks, please let me know, as as far as I know there have been proposed changes but in connection to councils, which been not legalised, yet, or?????
Thank you, I think we are getting closer to make parking a little bit more fair in Britain, or UK...
Thank you in advance again for your comments and advice

Herzlos

BPA Code Of Practise clause 13.4:

13.4
You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave
the private car park after the parking contract has ended,
before you take enforcement action.

What is reasonable is up for debate, and the BPA has some odd term where they require a car park to have a stated grace period but will not tell the public about it. This "secret" clause makes the contract invalid - there's no way you can agree to it because they won't tell you what is involved.
Since the council are now instigating a 10 minute grace period, it's fair to assume that 10 minutes is reasonable here, and your 8 minute overstay is well within that. The onus would then be on the PPC to state what the grace period actually is and how that is reasonable. It's a foregone conclusion that they'll state the grace period is just under your overstay (so probably 5 mins), but that should be easy enough to argue with - you were feeling unwell so probably not as quick as you could have been, you could be heavily laden with goods or just have mobilitiy issues. The site could be too big to reasonably get across in 5 minutes and so on.

The_Deep

What is reasonable is up for debate,


My understanding is that reasonability y relates to that which a reasonable man would expect. Thus, on a normal day, 10 minutes might be reasonable, but at a weekend in the run up to Christmas, or if there are nearby road works, or after a football match, it could be much longer.


A judge recently ruled that 31 minutes looking for a parking space at a popular surfing beach was not unreasonable.




r

Palec

Thank you for comments, more or less, if it goes to court it will depend on the judge on duty and what his opinion about reasonable is, but it is clear that I was not dodgy, as I stayed almost another hour extra, so 8 minutes are reasonable and provable from my point of view, I was just never expecting so much hassle because of it to be honest...

Palec

...as for car park in question, it is very small one, maybe for 10 cars in total, but I did not take place to anybody, because there have been free spaces left, and time from machine to my car is maybe 20 seconds, so that guy was really fast with issuing ticket, I saw his pps car nearby, but he has done his job for people who do pay him...
Ok, so let's see how the story continues, am definitely not communicating with DRP as I wrote them previously that I feel it is harassment and not to write me again and that without court judgement I am not going to pay anything...

Palec

I am listening to your advice people so let's hope, we will change something together in this respect...
Take care......