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Half way there and a slight change of direction
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My fave poem of all time, thanks for the reminder.
I have often wondered since I was a kid, how did the Germans not do things to stop it? How did they not know? How did they not try to stop things? I would've stopped it, I would've stood up ... now this weekend answered so many of those questions that I have had as a kid, and made me realise so many things about myself and humanity.
It is becoming a very scary world, and it's not just Trump, It's Brexit, It's global, it's the slaughter of innocent people, people drowning in the water off Venice and people laughing at them and telling them to go home, it's Syria and the slaughter of people that has became so normal now that it's not always even mentioned. It Egypt and what those people have suffered, it's India, it's the streets of the UK where people with funny accents are being punched, were people wearing a head scarf are being victimised, it's where people that live homeless on the streets are being talked of as if she they something to be wiped off the sole of a shoe, it's people on benefits who are being made to feel less than human. It's the disgusting spending of millions of pounds on a yacht whilst plundering the workforces pension. It's the screwing of the people for their taxes whilst allowing companies like Boots not pay theirs.
it's the destruction of humanity and the world on which we live, and it truly breaks my heart, and i sit and wring my hands and want to do something but feel so powerless to decide what campaign I take up, what people/land i support. And i know money or signing a petition or marching wont help ... and i feel powerless and paralysed0 -
I have often wondered since I was a kid, how did the Germans not do things to stop it? How did they not know? How did they not try to stop things?
They didn't know. Even today, when there is so much information available, people live in their own little filter bubbles. I am constantly astounded by how much people are unaware of. Why is that? Because they don't want to hear what they don't agree with and makes them uncomfortable, so they hide from it. The listen to those "trusted" sources which scratch their bellies, make them feel good, and which slip their sweet-tasting poisonous propaganda into their ears.
I heard propaganda described as not there to tell people what to think, but to give them an excuse not to. The first poem on KC's thread illustrates how people dislike thinking.I would've stopped it, I would've stood up ...
...if you'd known. Some people did know - and did do that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenstrasse_protest and were lost to the chattering of the general condemnation of Germans.
Put with the shoe on the other foot, how many protested at the mass expulsion of germans post WWII with the several hundred thousand ensuing deaths? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%9350)#Human_losses
Nobody.it's the destruction of humanity and the world on which we live,
It's change -Schumpter's creative destruction at work. The world operates in cycles, we've had our 4 generations (Baby boomers, Gen X, Gen Y, and Millennials) and we're supposed to be back around WWI time, where monolithic "empires" break up (think Austro-hungarian/Deutsches Reich/EU) and little countries come back to the fore.
(See Kondratiev, Great Waves etc etc )
There is the problem that the Millennials are supposed to be as strong and independent as the generation who birthed the baby-boomers (born about WWI time) - but they're not, they're Generation Snowflake. That still bothers me, as it's not supposed to happen... :rotfl:and it truly breaks my heart, and i sit and wring my hands and want to do something but feel so powerless to decide what campaign I take up, what people/land i support.
That's very post-modern thinking - let's all twit for world peace. If you want to actually want to achieve something, then you will need to do better than that.
If you just want to pretend you're achieving something - then it's good enough. You won't be alone - virtue signalling is so popular it's already in the Olympics.And i know money or signing a petition or marching wont help ... and i feel powerless and paralysed
First - decide if you do want to do something. You may be the wrong generation, and so mentally bent on keeping things the same, rather than progressing. You've already expressed your extreme dislike of change. We've (current generation in power) expended the fortune built up by generations before us in order to resist change.
Second- find out how things work. If you do that, then you will actually know what things to do which will make a difference.
But you will have to think - there's always a downside."Follow the money!" - Deepthroat (AKA William Mark Felt Sr - Associate Director of the FBI)
"We were born and raised in a summer haze." Adele 'Someone like you.'
"Blowing your mind, 'cause you know what you'll find, when you're looking for things in the sky." OMD 'Julia's Song'0 -
Thanks Z
I do campaign though, actively against many things, fracking poverty, climate damage, trident to name a few, I've spent many an hour in a soup kitchen trying to find people clothes shelter food and furniture ... I've barricaded myself to places to stop people ... I've learned how to fight the council changes coming ... how to campaign, I've taught people the same ... I've signed petitions ... even though I don't believe they make one iota of a difference ... but the need to try takes over.
and I love change ... I embrace change ... I campaigned for an independent Scotland and strongly believe we will be independent one day ... that's a big local change I look to see achieve
But the paralysis is still there ... the wringing of hands and crying of tears when I see someone /animal/ land suffer ... I get to the point of saying what more can I give? What cause is more worthy? And when it gets to the point when I was spending huge swathes of our income helping supporting and campaigning to the detriment of almost everything else and yet no real change happens I could cry ... but worse than that is when I then turn on the news or talk to people and listen to the hatred for others done by the process of othering I feel overwhelmed
And recently ... recently this seems to happen much much more often0 -
I remember once sitting at 1.30 in the morning having been up since 6.30 campaigning and not having been fed, I remember sitting in a McDonald's having a meal and thinking this is what I'm reduced to? Eating a McD at 1.30 knowing I'm back up in a few hours to start again ...0
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I do campaign though, actively against many things, fracking poverty, climate damage, trident to name a few, I've spent many an hour in a soup kitchen trying to find people clothes shelter food and furniture ... I've barricaded myself to places to stop people ... I've learned how to fight the council changes coming ... how to campaign, I've taught people the same ... I've signed petitions ... even though I don't believe they make one iota of a difference ... but the need to try takes over.
Then why are you doing these things, if they're not working? Does remind me somewhat of one of "those" relationships when if only you worked yourself a little bit harder, proved yourself a little bit more, then things would change.
But they never do.and I love change ... I embrace change ... I campaigned for an independent Scotland and strongly believe we will be independent one day ... that's a big local change I look to see achieve
That's change on your terms. What about change you don't control, and don't want?
Let's pick an example, I read a book once, which was written by a man who knows more about benefits and charity than I'll ever know, but he stated there are two different type of benefit - contribution based (such as a pension) and needs based (such as income support).
He also stated - thinking the unthinkable - that needs-based benefits and mass immigration are incompatible over any long-term time-scale. You can have one, but not the other.
If you had the power to make that decision - which would you choose?
Would you accept someone else's choice, given they had the power? Even if they hadn't actually chosen, and the default choice was made for them by circumstances?But the paralysis is still there ... the wringing of hands and crying of tears when I see someone /animal/ land suffer ... I get to the point of saying what more can I give? What cause is more worthy?
And how did you determine "worthiness"? Charities are very efficient machines for converting guilt into cold hard cash. So they will spend many thousands on adverts for the Ben Nevis baby seal appeal*, so that people will give their money and imagine it'll go directly to those cute creatures and not directly to the chief executive's pocket for that cheeky little Roja on payday - charities are somewhat lucrative in that department...And when it gets to the point when I was spending huge swathes of our income helping supporting and campaigning to the detriment of almost everything else and yet no real change happens
And that is why you need to look and understand how things *actually* work. If you don't, then you're just dancing around to someone elses's tune, and for their selfish benefit.
And their cheeky little Rojas.
If you want to see how propaganda actually works, I recommend Russia Today (RT) on youtube. Rather like the old versions of Thunderbirds, they do it so badly you can see the strings.I could cry ...
Others took it far more badly.
But even so :grouphug:but worse than that is when I then turn on the news or talk to people and listen to the hatred for others done by the process of othering I feel overwhelmed
Are you sure it's that? "Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a well-known solution to every human problem—neat, plausible, and wrong."
"Othering" is a handy concept. Stops people having to think.And recently ... recently this seems to happen much much more often
And now the killer question - why? "Others" would be constant throughout time surely?
Unless it's wrong...
*may not be real"Follow the money!" - Deepthroat (AKA William Mark Felt Sr - Associate Director of the FBI)
"We were born and raised in a summer haze." Adele 'Someone like you.'
"Blowing your mind, 'cause you know what you'll find, when you're looking for things in the sky." OMD 'Julia's Song'0 -
On phone so will try and answer what I can
... I have cut back a lot of my campaigning work now purely because I know change doesn't appear to be happening , have went from 4 to 5 nights a week to once a month, do have a new campaign that will be startin back up which I may become more involved in as this was a successful campaign last time, just however the issue has arisen once again due to council plans ... so yeah I a way I've became so dispondent that I have stopped most things, i did stop helping a lot of local charities out ( soup kitchen local older people work ) due to the politics of the situation, the judging of the service users by the management of who was mlre worthy of their help etc.
I haven't volunteered for a big " charity" since the red cross I saw too much there and thought no more, I did work for a charity for 10 years, but haven't donated to one for longer, the work I did/do is with local campaign groups, like common weal WFI etc ... the ones where we make the decisions who/ what we want to help support and how we want to do so.... an autonomous group within an autonomous organisation
I get what u mean about change on jy terms I do, and there you are right, I do embrace change but only if it's for what I perceive to be the better , the very idea of change for the destruction of the planet is abhorrent in my opinion so would not embrace that, the idea of racism being acceptable is not something I embrace
I do watch RT and the BBC so I know what propaganda is ... as stated above learned the art of how to campaign and deal with issues and help others do the same ... that way we pick the tune to which we play ... just there are so many bloody tunes to play it gets overwhelming sometimes .
I do think it is that, yes the TV gives propaganda yes so do the newspapers ( maybe buy 1/2 a year) but the people I meet at work are real, their hatred of others is real and whilst I accept it has been ever thus it is more vocal now, people appear to be more embolden now and that is the change / concern that has me sitting shaking my head..0 -
Ps always love talking to u z ... it helps me sort my stuff out xxxxx
Thanks as always xxxx0 -
El, I absolutely understand where you're coming from. I was a campaigner from late teens till my thirties ... then I stopped. Cruise missiles were a case in point: absolutely massive demonstrations against them, for years, and nothing happened until international politics deemed they weren't useful - nothing to do with the demonstrations.
So I decided to sort out my own house, when I was working for Mencap there was a speaker invited to speak to the staff who basically said "if everyone looked after themselves, there'd be no need for charities". Obviously, there was uproar! And plenty of Mencap's clients absolutely can't look after themselves. But I'd never heard the principle, and it started off a completely different train of thought (thats still going now, applied to new areas).
The stuff that gives us the heebie jeebies - the institutionalised hatred, the individual hatred, all of it - it's always been going on, human nature hasn't changed at all since we headed out of Africa 100,000 years ago. I can take care of my corner, and thats it, I'm afraid. I'd love to do more, but my head is only just above water as it is. And I know my problems are first world problems, but I live in the first world.
I will donate to the big charities because they have shops where I can take stuff, but I don't trust them - as Z says, they have their nice little rioja, I saw it at first hand at Mencap. NCT aren't like that, actually - I worked at Central HQ for a year, and the whole organisation only had about 20 employees, **everything** else was done by volunteers.
I fall back on my anthropological training, sadly - the next 100 years or so will be a rough time, mostly because of climate change, population density and income inequality.
[/rant]2023: the year I get to buy a car0 -
On phone so will try and answer what I can ...
Wow! You hero! Typing much more than "OK" on a phone is a dreadful experience for me...I have cut back a lot of my campaigning work now purely because I know change doesn't appear to be happening , have went from 4 to 5 nights a week to once a month, do have a new campaign that will be startin back up which I may become more involved in as this was a successful campaign last time, just however the issue has arisen once again due to council plans ...
So was it really successful?so yeah I a way I've became so dispondent that I have stopped most things, i did stop helping a lot of local charities out ( soup kitchen local older people work ) due to the politics of the situation, the judging of the service users by the management of who was mlre worthy of their help etc.
If they have scarce resources, then they will have to make judgements of "bang for buck", you can't really judge them harshly for that. It's when they start making non-"bang for buck" judgements that troubles arise. As in "He's my mate" kind of judgements.I haven't volunteered for a big " charity" since the red cross I saw too much there and thought no more, I did work for a charity for 10 years, but haven't donated to one for longer, the work I did/do is with local campaign groups, like common weal WFI etc ... the ones where we make the decisions who/ what we want to help support and how we want to do so.... an autonomous group within an autonomous organisation
Well I don't want to leave you with the impression that I think *all* charities are bad. Some of the very local ones (such as hospices) can really make a difference. Just if the charity covers more area than you can comfortably walk around, then it's time to be suspicious IMHO...I get what u mean about change on jy terms I do, and there you are right, I do embrace change but only if it's for what I perceive to be the better , the very idea of change for the destruction of the planet is abhorrent in my opinion so would not embrace that,
No, no - not destruction of the planet, but the idea that things must be destroyed for better things to flourish. Like how some trees only seed when there's a forest fire, because that's the only thing that removes the choking effect of dead-wood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destructionthe idea of racism being acceptable is not something I embrace
Many people profess that, then if you bring up "affirmative action", then they start twisting themselves up into little pretzels...I do watch RT and the BBC so I know what propaganda is ...
The BBC is far more subtle, and hence more insidious and disturbing. RT is often a laugh a minute when Putin rides a bear into a lake, finds some historic treasure (like he's Lara Croft with a marginally smaller chest) and rises out of the deep having somehow lost his top...
(actually only a small exaggeration...)I do think it is that, yes the TV gives propaganda yes so do the newspapers ( maybe buy 1/2 a year)
Sun holidays or to win Daily Mail Cottages?but the people I meet at work are real, their hatred of others is real and whilst I accept it has been ever thus it is more vocal now, people appear to be more embolden now and that is the change / concern that has me sitting shaking my head..
Are they emboldened (my definition: think they're less likely to be punished) or are they just feeling it more?Ps always love talking to u z ... it helps me sort my stuff out xxxxx
Thanks as always xxxx
It's always good to have sensible conversations every once in a while. I'd bet 99.8% of the people on this board think I'm incapable of them... :rotfl:El, I absolutely understand where you're coming from. I was a campaigner from late teens till my thirties ... then I stopped. Cruise missiles were a case in point: absolutely massive demonstrations against them, for years, and nothing happened until international politics deemed they weren't useful - nothing to do with the demonstrations.
They're still around. We use them from submarines to punish small countries for having the temerity to not do as we tell them.So I decided to sort out my own house, when I was working for Mencap there was a speaker invited to speak to the staff who basically said "if everyone looked after themselves, there'd be no need for charities". Obviously, there was uproar!
You probably need to explain this to me. I'd hold this to be self-evident, so can't see why they'd be uproar.And plenty of Mencap's clients absolutely can't look after themselves. But I'd never heard the principle, and it started off a completely different train of thought (thats still going now, applied to new areas).
The stuff that gives us the heebie jeebies - the institutionalised hatred, the individual hatred, all of it - it's always been going on, human nature hasn't changed at all since we headed out of Africa 100,000 years ago.
I would disagree with that. First of all humans in general don't hate for no reason at all. It's usually to psyche themselves up so they will compete (up to the level of kill) over scarce resources. In times of plenty, it's in everyone's interest to live and let live - conflict is "expensive". I've probably given away the answer to a question I asked there...
After all, homo sapiens left Africa a number of times and bred with Neanderthals each time. Can't be that scared of strangers if you're shacking up with someone who is not even your species...
Institutionalised hatred is a different kettle of fish though. Why is it done? Because emotion excludes thought, and thought is dangerous to those who would want to manipulate for their own ends. So those people who shriek at "injustice", or who go "aah" at cutsy little polar bears are all part of the problem because they're having the feelies and not the thinkies...I can take care of my corner, and thats it, I'm afraid. I'd love to do more, but my head is only just above water as it is.
"Charity begins at home."And I know my problems are first world problems, but I live in the first world.
You could fix that by moving to Hull...I will donate to the big charities because they have shops where I can take stuff, but I don't trust them - as Z says, they have their nice little rioja, I saw it at first hand at Mencap. NCT aren't like that, actually - I worked at Central HQ for a year, and the whole organisation only had about 20 employees, **everything** else was done by volunteers.
It's probably about here where I do my soap box about supporting the local hospices. I think (and this is not from personal experience so use appropriate salting) that they do good work. Certainly the conversation a few weeks ago that said local Councils should take over their work left me :eek::eek::eek:I fall back on my anthropological training, sadly - the next 100 years or so will be a rough time, mostly because of climate change, population density and income inequality.
[/rant]
Don't get fooled by training. That's just being able to regurgitate what other people have told you. I still can't believe Ehrlich still gets paid to spew his nonsense.
I'll leave you with a picture and a few questions...- How much of the area in that circle is land, and how much is sea?
- How many time could you divide up the rest of the planet into
areas equal to the land area in the circle. (Beware of projection inaccuracies)
"Follow the money!" - Deepthroat (AKA William Mark Felt Sr - Associate Director of the FBI)
"We were born and raised in a summer haze." Adele 'Someone like you.'
"Blowing your mind, 'cause you know what you'll find, when you're looking for things in the sky." OMD 'Julia's Song'0 -
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