Economy 7 Meter scandal?

[Deleted User]

Cashstrapped , its not the developers, builders or architects etc who have installed these meters its the Local Authoritys or even a Government decision to make certain towns awash with eco 7 meters simply to keep the Power stations busy at night at their lowest production time. Its not the fault of the energy companies or suppliers because when they were all installed every area had 2 only , the " Gas Board " and the Local Electric Board, in my area it was Yorkshire Electric Board or Y.E.B. The power stations can t simply shut up shop in the night so a lot of towns were selected to install eco 7s as a matter of course. I m amazed at Worksop in particular which have these meters in all manner of housing stock, new builds in the 80s which came with gas .c h. from day one.Maybe in the days before privatisation the prices for eco7 were much different but times have changed a lot now and for all these Eco 7s its time to get rid. OK some posters are saying there are little differences if they select the right suppliers or timer heavy use appliances but I routinely see 5 to 10 % night time use as a norm in many of these 2 raters.
I could do with an energy expert who knows why all these towns I ve mentioned are awash with eco7s, new and old properties alike. The reason I was informed was that it was purely for the sake of power station production and if thats the case then people are being conned and its costing them a lot of money every year

sillygoose

My fully gas heated house has a dual rate meter, its not really economy 7 as such because there is no dual circuit output to run E7 heating off even if you wanted.

But as it displays dual rates I have to be on E7 tariffs. I was really annoyed at realising this and have been considering how to get off it. My current night use is 15%

But.. I have recently got a hybrid vehicle that is charged at home, I have not tried it yet but it can be programmed to timer charge itself at night and as it has a 12 kw/h battery to fill I am now thinking I will stay on an E7 rate as its so much cheaper I suspect I will win big time on it.

I am in the Midlands, do the rate times change or is the meter likely to be permanently programmed to change rate always the same time?

CashStrapped

[FONT=&quot]Sacsquacco

For those properties with electric only; E7 and storage heaters are usually by far the cheapest and most cost effective heating solution. (not including more expensive/exotic set-ups)

For those properties which have GCH and an E7 set-up, you are right, it may not be suitable for these in many circumstances. But as anything in life it is down to the individual to work out what is suitable for them. All it usually takes is a telephone call and a free meter change. It is no harder than switching.

So regardless of who, what and why they were first installed, the solution [changing [FONT=&quot]the meter[/FONT]] is free and easy. It only takes a modicum of curiosity (in my opinion) to inquire as to why there are two meters in the house and why/how they operate.

I for one think it is a good idea that we as a population are encouraged to spread our electricity use more evenly over a 24 hour clock. It makes sense from an energy management perspective. As I and others have pointed out, at this time there are E7 tariffs on which the day rate is better than nearly all single tariff rates. So the fact you have a cheaper night rate, makes it a no-brainer (if you have E7 ) for most people.
[/FONT]

Cardew

sacsquacco wrote: »

OK some posters are saying there are little differences if they select the right suppliers or timer heavy use appliances but I routinely see 5 to 10 % night time use as a norm in many of these 2 raters.

sacsquacco,


That lack of awareness applies to the 50%(I understand) of households who remain on the standard(i.e. most expensive) tariffs of the original suppliers e.g. British Gas and YEB in Yorkshire.


Also single occupants of houses who could cut their water bill in half if they got a meter.


For the past 15 years the media have bombarded us with messages to switch suppliers; see the news today as an example. Just what do you do if people won't listen?


Incidentally we have had a National Grid for 80+ years and one of the main purposes for its creation was to stop the dependence of properties on their local power station.


The good folk of Yorkshire are probably getting that lovely electricity generated by Nuclear power stations in France!

tberry6686

naedanger wrote: »

Actually I deleted my original quote which crossed with your answer above. However as you have now replied I will repeat the jist of what I said.

When comparing the efficiency of an electric heater with GCH it is misleading comparing the on site efficiency of each. It is true that measured on site an electric heater is 100% efficient (and a fan heater is not an exception) and GCH is less (I will take your figures of 60% to 98% as being accurate).

However much, much more energy is lost in the generation and transmission of electricity than in the transmission of gas.

how far back in the supply chain do you think we should go when working out somethings efficiency ?

The original claim was that storage heaters are inefficient. At the point of use they are more efficient than any gas central heating system that I am aware of.

naedanger

tberry6686 wrote: »

how far back in the supply chain do you think we should go when working out somethings efficiency ?

Personally as a customer I would measure the efficiency by price and on that basis for most people who can get gas (such as the OP) gas is a cheaper (i.e. more cost efficient) form of heating.

If I wanted to compare the energy efficiency of electric heating with GCH I would at least go back to the source energy e.g. the fossil fuel. The easiest comparison would be gas central heating with electricity generated from gas. And GCH will be more energy efficient.

The original claim was that storage heaters are inefficient. At the point of use they are more efficient than any gas central heating system that I am aware of.

The OP actually said:

"Then we were taking these inefficient,expensive NS Heaters out almost 50 years ago and replacing them with more efficient and cheaper to run Gas Central Heating.The majority of our customers seemed to view them as just that-Prehistoric-and I am surprised that they are still being fitted today."

You called these claims idiotic. Yet the first sentence is essentially correct. Firstly electricity is nearly always more expensive than gas per kwh. Secondly comparing electric heating efficiency of 100% with GCH efficiency at 60% to 98% is misleading because the majority of electricity is generated from fossil fuels or nuclear energy and by the time you have allowed for the energy lost in electricity generation and transmission the efficiency will be less than 50%, and probably closer to 40%. (It is only if you ignore the fact that electricity generation is inefficient that electricity is a 100% efficient form of heating. But that is stupid. In the real world the electricity needs to be generated.)

It would be completely sensible to say that electric heaters are 100% efficient in the context of comparing electric heaters. In other words they are all equally efficient and all convert 100% of the electricity they use to heat. But to use the 100% figure to rubbish someone's claim that GCH was more efficient and cheaper is very misleading at best.

[Deleted User]

Cashstrapped and Cardew
I ve just had a look at the rates available at the moment, in my area,probably one of the cheapest in the UK and am a little shocked at the differences Eco 7 customers can get if they take a look also. None of them can get close to Sainsburys single rate day rate of 8.78 but with diligent night usage could probably eclipse it.
BG standard Eco 7 is 17.2 day/6.22 night 25p dsc whilst Sainsburys BG is 12.29 day/ and only 3.82 night +25p dsc.
First Utility rates are also excellent , unlike their customer services with Day at 10.84 night at 7.24 and only 14p dsc. their gas is also the cheapest I ve seen 2.93p kwhr + 20p dsc
So its a case of the same old story as the headlines have been saying today and yesterday about 50% of customers who stay loyal to the old guard ,( like the OAPs do ) and are getting fleeced.

Cardew

sacsquacco wrote: »

Cashstrapped and Cardew
I ve just had a look at the rates available at the moment, in my area,probably one of the cheapest in the UK and am a little shocked at the differences Eco 7 customers can get if they take a look also.

This is the point we have been trying to make to the OP.


With an E7 meter I have followed this for nearly 27 years. At times E7 has been considerably cheaper even for those with Gas CH. It was much commented on MSE when some years ago one company actually had their E7 day(peak) rate(both Tier1 and Tier 2) cheaper than their lowest normal(24/7) rate and a very low off-peak rate.


When BG introduced their 4+ year duel fuel fix in 2006 I simply got them to add the two readings together and had a 'normal' 24/7 tariff.


Incidentally the OP's NPower E7 tariff is not too bad. The figures I gave above show that with just normal use he will be paying just a little more than a normal tariff. It is a pity he won't give his consumption figures.

Staffers

My energy provider (SSE/M&S) changed my meter in 2007. Previous meter was an old style thing, last checked in '96 it seems. Because of work etc it hadn't been read since Jan 14 (yes,my very bad) but I had been paying quarterly estimates to the tune of £1839 from then to date. This month I finally got round to putting in an accurate reading and now have an additional bill of £990. So in two years, in a household of two teenage boys and myself we've managed to rack up almost £3,000 electric. I am paying the bill but in conversation with SSE they told me I had an Economy 7 meter which, had I known I'd have run away from. 98.2% of my use age is daytime. It's not a big house - 3 small double beds, mid terrace, myself and two sons have been tenants here for 14 years. Scenario explained, my question is "is there anything I can do about an E7 meter installation that I wasn't aware of"? SSE said that their meter team would contact me to change the meter....10 days ago. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Rubidium

Staffers wrote: »

My energy provider (SSE/M&S) changed my meter in 2007. Previous meter was an old style thing, last checked in '96 it seems. Because of work etc it hadn't been read since Jan 14 (yes,my very bad) but I had been paying quarterly estimates to the tune of £1839 from then to date. This month I finally got round to putting in an accurate reading and now have an additional bill of £990. So in two years, in a household of two teenage boys and myself we've managed to rack up almost £3,000 electric. I am paying the bill but in conversation with SSE they told me I had an Economy 7 meter which, had I known I'd have run away from. 98.2% of my use age is daytime. It's not a big house - 3 small double beds, mid terrace, myself and two sons have been tenants here for 14 years. Scenario explained, my question is "is there anything I can do about an E7 meter installation that I wasn't aware of"? SSE said that their meter team would contact me to change the meter....10 days ago. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

You have posted on this one year old "Economy 7 Meter scandal?" thread asking is there anything that you can do about an E7 installation that you were not aware of.

However you have admitted to paying estimated bills because you couldn't be bothered to provide actual readings until recently. These bill will have stated your E7 tariff and will have shown day and night units and their respective unit costs.

All energy comparison sites ask if you have E7 so that they can quote you the best options available. They also needs to know what % of your usage is used at night.

You say that you use 98.2% during the day, is that lazy guestimate. Post your actual annual day and night kWh usage figures as that figure is ridiculous.

The only scandal is that you have not bothered to read your bills for two years and have not provided meter readings to your supplier. If you can't be bothered, why should they be bothered what tariff you are on!

Obviously not what you want to read but if you want to save money rather than waste money, then the simple answer is that you need to pay attention and put a little effort in, because no one else is bothered if you are paying more that you need to.

Did you actually read this thread before posting and do you still think that this really is a scandal?