Economy 7 Meter scandal?

Kenyakimbo

sacsquacco wrote: »

I agree that the OP had the knowledge to realise he d been sold a pup , but out there in the UK there s a population who don t know what a kwhr is,understand an energy bill, understand that "standard "tariff really means "expensive " or why their lecky meter has all these numbers on it .Like Sheffieldlad also has noticed , parts of Sheffield ,the Southern areas especially are awash with eco 7 for no good reason. Close to my town theres Finningly, next to the airport which is inundated with no good or no use expensive eco 7 meters. Maybe 30 years ago the economics were different, but today I noticed an eco 7 prepay in Goole ( with gas central heating of course ) on 18.2 p /kwhr with BG , when I pay .. 8.7 p kwhr ( or I will when the switch to Sainsburys BG go s through. Theres big money at stake here and people need to know. The suppliers wont tell them

Sacsquacco
The other "smoke and mirrors"trick is when they charge 8/9pkwhr-then 45p per day standing charge.Thats over £300 per year standing charges for Gas and Electricity.

Kenyakimbo

CashStrapped wrote: »

So how do you explain that for my use, an E7 tariff would be better than the best single rate tariff available to me?

Cashstrapped
So how do you explain to me that 3 Npower Customer Service staff have calculated that I would be over £200 a year better off on a Single tariff meter?

CashStrapped

Because that may be based on how much you use per year and when you use your electricity. I would not trust Npower customer service to give you accurate impartial information. You should always do the comparison yourself.

You could be a lot better off if you moved away from NPower as there are much more competitive single rate tariffs available.

As I said First Utility have a better E7 tariff than most single rate tariffs.

Best Npower Electric Tariff:

10.752p per KWH
29.76p standing charge (£108.61 per year)

First Utility E7 tariff

10.849p per kwh day
7.242p per kwh night
14.76 daily standing charge (£53.88 per year)

For 4500kwh a year the npower single rate tariff (above) would cost £592

For 4500kwh a year the First Utility E7 would cost (at only 35% night use) £488

Results based on my area and electric only tariffs.

[Deleted User]

Kenyakimbo wrote: »

Cashstrapped
So how do you explain to me that 3 Npower Customer Service staff have calculated that I would be over £200 a year better off on a Single tariff meter?

The suppliers are now obliged to let consumers know if an eco7 meter is nt suitable..so far I ve not met anyone who has been informed of that info. I do ask them to call customer services to check usage because a few suppliers, like BG and EDF can bill single rate but that does nt help them in getting onto these much cheaper one year fixes with a supplier such as Sainsburys Energy who have come in lately with tariffs like 8.78p kwhr electric and 3.2 pkwhr gas (26p dsc ).

Cardew

Kenyakimbo wrote: »

So I am sorry,but I was a Gas Heating Engineer and I do not accept the fact that with Gas Central Heating+Hot Water one is better off with an Economy 7 meter-even Npower disagrees with you there-

You must be one of the very few people who believe the information given to you by NPower;)

Quite seriously, I and others have no axe to grind and take a keen interest in energy pricing.

I am not saying that E7 should be the tariff of choice for all properties with gas CH. However it can work out cheaper for many properties, and as stated earlier the 'break even' percentage has varied over the years.

I am certainly not an insomniac and am usually in bed by midnight. My E7 off-peak runs from 00:30hrs to 07:30 in winter(GMT) and 01:30 to 08:30 in summer(BST).

We normally program appliances dishwasher/Washing machine/Dryer to operate overnight and there is usually someone up and about by 06:30/07:00. Taken over the whole year my percentage of electricity on off peak rates is 25%; and with that consumption E7 is cheaper than a normal tariff.

As said earlier, the average annual consumption in UK is 13,500kWh gas and 3,200kWh electricity.

In the Midlands area the cheapest combination I can get for that consumption on a normal(i.e. Non E7) tariff is £832. That is made up of £428 gas with Npower fix to 2016 and £404 on Scottish Power fix to 2016.

Using the same consumption but using an Economy 7 tariff with 0%(zero percent) used on off peak the cost is £837 i.e just £5 a year more. That is taking gas from Npower at £428 and electricity from First utility at £409. In practice it would be impossible to use 0% in the 7 hours unless you switched off fridges/pumps lights etc and stayed in bed until after 8:30 am!

So for everyone in the Midlands on average consumption it will be cheaper to have an E7 tariff than a normal tariff. I suspect for almost every area of UK and every household there will be very little between an E7 tariff and a normal tariff.

I even checked NPower's dual fuel tariffs for that consumption. On their non E7 tariff the cost is £880 for the 2016 fix. on their Economy 7 tariff using again 0%(zero) off-peak the cost is £929 i.e. £49 more. If you used just15% on off-peak it costs £910 i.e. £30 pa more.

If you care to post your total gas and both sets of electricity consumption, and your area, we will let you know exactly the difference between an E7 and normal tariff.

[Deleted User]

Cardew, you are a bit of an expert on tariffs but you re not telling me that that young lass I met today with an eco 7 electric prepay ( and gas central heating prepay ) paying 18.2 p/kwhr day rate (night 7.16 p for the odd unit she may consume as she sleeps ) is paying a similar price as what I pay, that is 8.78 p kwh all the way thro..same dsc 26 p a day..
An increasing number of people are using prepay by either force fit due to debt or by request because of a big bill. Prepays have been steadily increasing and in a lot of areas they are the most used meters .
Headline news today as I view the telly, about how much people can save if they switch supplier ( or tariffs ) saying 50% of people have never switched. Some people need to be protected from their ignorance and a good 20% of people, mostly the elderly have nt , and never will have the internet to get the knowledge to make sure they are not blowing up to £500 a year and more for no good reason. Having a baffling eco 7 meter under the stairs is nt helping one bit

Cardew

Sacsquacco,
No I am not in any way saying ' your young lass' should be on an E7 tariff. In fact I put in my last post 'I am not saying that E7 should be the tariff of choice for all properties with gas CH. However it can work out cheaper for many properties'

However the OP has made sweeping statements that simply do not stand up to examination.

His major misunderstanding is that it is the fault of the energy companies that E7 meters are installed in properties with gas CH, when it is the builders/developers who specify what type of meter; or in my case I stipulated I wanted an E7 meter.

The second point is that an E7 tariff can be cheaper even with Gas CH and I cannot see any way that the OP would be worse off to the tune of £220 pa on E7 - and a Npower call centre operator saying so, doesn't make it true.


However if he posts his consumption details we can tell him if Npower are correct or not.

Kenyakimbo

sacsquacco wrote: »

Cardew, you are a bit of an expert on tariffs but you re not telling me that that young lass I met today with an eco 7 electric prepay ( and gas central heating prepay ) paying 18.2 p/kwhr day rate (night 7.16 p for the odd unit she may consume as she sleeps ) is paying a similar price as what I pay, that is 8.78 p kwh all the way thro..same dsc 26 p a day..
An increasing number of people are using prepay by either force fit due to debt or by request because of a big bill. Prepays have been steadily increasing and in a lot of areas they are the most used meters .
Headline news today as I view the telly, about how much people can save if they switch supplier ( or tariffs ) saying 50% of people have never switched. Some people need to be protected from their ignorance and a good 20% of people, mostly the elderly have nt , and never will have the internet to get the knowledge to make sure they are not blowing up to £500 a year and more for no good reason. Having a baffling eco 7 meter under the stairs is nt helping one bit

Sacsquacco..
So there we have it-E7 can be cheaper than a standard fixed-price tariff-so long as you have washing machines,dishwashers,dryers,etc running all night-oh and you get up at 6-6.30am,(Cardew),ha-ha.
But I have retired now so I don't need to rise at 6am in the morning-nor do I want Electrical Appliances running all night downstairs-with the risk of fire due to an appliance failure-just to make E7 economically viable as against a single meter.
In 1996,when I bought this house,I was a pipework contractor for Bass Brewers-it was 7 days per week,10-12 hours a day and I also used to do quotations and Vat,when I arrived home at 7pm.All work and no play-and I certainly didn't have time to consider that the Dual Read in my house,was in fact the wrong unit for a 4-bedroomed Gas-central heated house,why would I-it had been in the house since 1987?It was not until I informed Npower with regard to them taking the wrong readings that they told me that I was paying much more on E7 and should have had a single read meter from day one.
When I checked the bills,I could see there was a night rate and a day rate-but never realised that the daytime rate was greatly increased to more than compensate for the cheaper night rate.When I checked my neighbours meters,(all E7),and explained to them that the day rate was greatly increased on this E7 to compensate for the cheaper nightime tariff-none of them were aware of this either-cos no-one ever told them!
Different people are saying that there hardly any difference in E7 rates to other best rates.This may well be so in todays utility
market place,with the new smaller companies,(Ovo,First Utility etc.),forcing the big 6 to temper their greed and offer more competitive prices.I also believe that the big 6 know of the possibility of a scandal,(as more people have become aware of the scam and complained),so have moved their E7 rates more closely to alignment with other rates.
Like yourself,I am on a Pricefix,(May 2016),paying around 9p kwhr-and 18pdsc,but looking back 3years my rates on E7 were 28.11p kwh,(up to728kw year),19.07p,(over 728kw year),and 5.08p night rate! So I believe historical E7 rates were much higher than todays rates.

CashStrapped

Kenyakimbo wrote: »

In 1996,when I bought this house,I was a pipework contractor for Bass Brewers-it was 7 days per week,10-12 hours a day and I also used to do quotations and Vat,when I arrived home at 7pm.All work and no play-and I certainly didn't have time to consider that the Dual Read in my house,was in fact the wrong unit for a 4-bedroomed Gas-central heated house,why would I-it had been in the house since 1987?

As I thought. It is your own incompetence/ignorance (especially for someone who claimed to work in the industry) and inability to check your bills that has led to you being so anrgy.

Kenyakimbo wrote: »

It was not until I informed Npower with regard to them taking the wrong readings that they told me that I was paying much more on E7 and should have had a single read meter from day one.

So on the one hand it is the "evil energy companies" (who we all work for, except sacsquacco) who planned this all along (even though it was the developer who specified the meters) yet at the same time you seem to believe everything that Npower tell you.

Have you used a comparsion site or done the maths yourself. You could be better off leaving Npower for a much cheaper company. Did they tell you that?

Kenyakimbo wrote: »

When I checked the bills,I could see there was a night rate and a day rate-but never realised that the daytime rate was greatly increased to more than compensate for the cheaper night rate.

It took you 20 years to work this out and you worked in the gas fitting industry!

Kenyakimbo wrote: »

Like yourself,I am on a Pricefix,(May 2016),paying around 9p kwhr-and 18pdsc,but looking back 3years my rates on E7 were 28.11p kwh,(up to728kw year),19.07p,(over 728kw year),and 5.08p night rate! So I believe historical E7 rates were much higher than todays rates.

The fact that it took you 20 years to work out what Day and Night actually meant, indicates to me that you probably were not too discerning about what tariff you were on for all these years. Just because you were on a terrible e7 tariff for the last 20 years, does not mean that all E7 tariffs were poor.

Kenyakimbo

CashStrapped wrote: »

As I thought. It is your own incompetence/ignorance (especially for someone who claimed to work in the industry) and inability to check your bills that has led to you being so anrgy.



So on the one hand it is the "evil energy companies" (who we all work for, except sacsquacco) who planned this all along (even though it was the developer who specified the meters) yet at the same time you seem to believe everything that Npower tell you.

Have you used a comparsion site or done the maths yourself. You could be better off leaving Npower for a much cheaper company. Did they tell you that?



It took you 20 years to work this out and you worked in the gas fitting industry!



The fact that it took you 20 years to work out what Day and Night actually meant, indicates to me that you probably were not too discerning about what tariff you were on for all these years. Just because you were on a terrible e7 tariff for the last 20 years, does not mean that all E7 tariffs were poor.

CashStrapped,
I see you have jumped on your little bandwagon again,with further insults and misquotes.This post was not even addressed to you-but you couldn't resist dissecting my comments and replying with more vitriol and bile.
I have to wonder what your agenda is?
Seek some help-you need it.