Salmond and Sturgeon Want the English Fish for More Fat Subsidies

Leanne1812

Generali wrote: »

It seems that the good Mr Sheppard would like to have his constitutional cake and eat it. If you want less UK then that means less influence over what happens in England. Voting against the 'privatisation' of the English NHS is a prime example of something that is none of his damn business. Ditto English Uni tuition fees.

If English spending decisions impact on the Block Grant, too bad. This is the road the SNP wants to take the Union down. Not everything the SNP does is good for Scotland and this is an obvious outcome of everything the SNP has asked for.

Touch!


I constantly hear the SNP aren't Scotland yet you seem to have confused that. He is only saying what I'd imagine his constituents would expect of him.

So Scotland's funding being cut is just tough in the case of NHS privatisation or tuition fees in England? Is that constructive for a happy Union? I think it was a fair & balanced article. He does understand that the current system is imperfect but the proposals do not appear fair in what is the UK Parliament for all MP's. Is it right that unelected lords will have more power than elected MPs?

I wonder what Hamish & Skint feel about EVEL and its implications, care to respond any of you?

For the record I am an SNP supporter & member but don't wish to hark back to last years arguments. I think I may be representative of quite a few people who just do not see an alternative credible party here that I'd consider voting for at the moment.

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Banned from voting? That is a lie. Non English MPs can express their views in the debate and they can vote so that their opinion can be taken into account in the decision.

English MPs, however, can't vote on Scottish only matters and their views are given no airing at all.

Scottish MP's cannot vote on Scotland only matters either. They sit in the UK parliament.

It will be interesting to see how that pans out since the result will depend on the wording of the motions deemed English only, if there are any.

It still looks absolutely terrible and the timing appalling when not a single power from the Vow/Scotland Act has come through yet. That the speaker gets to decide on what is English only or not.. and therefore which bills Welsh/NI and Scottish MP's get to vote or not on. Questionable. There will probably never be another Scottish or Welsh PM ever again either.

The most childish thing the SNP can do, and therefore probably what they will do, is to stamp their feet (in unison) and not vote on such matters, claiming they are being ignored or some such whinge.

I think going forward, the opposite might be the case. They'll vote on everything, regardless. But anyway, the UK parliament via the Tories has now decided to split itself into separate 'nations' when it comes to voting rights and criteria. So a truly UK parliament no more.

Salmond must be laughing his socks off.

Generali

I'm not very comfortable with these changes but it is the road that Nationalism has sent the UK down. Effectively, a couple of million Scots are doing their best to trash the UK for the other 60 million.

It's a disgrace but that's the road we're on and I don't really see how Nationalists can complain when another group seek to defend what they have.

The SNP as a matter of policy seek to divide and cause hatred. This is a result.

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Salmond must be laughing his socks off.

Yup. This is what the SNP want. They profess to complain about it but it absolutely suits their ultimate goal: independence for Scotland at any price.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

It seems that the good Mr Sheppard would like to have his constitutional cake and eat it. If you want less UK then that means less influence over what happens in England. Voting against the 'privatisation' of the English NHS is a prime example of something that is none of his damn business. Ditto English Uni tuition fees.

If English spending decisions impact on the Block Grant, too bad. This is the road the SNP wants to take the Union down. Not everything the SNP does is good for Scotland and this is an obvious outcome of everything the SNP has asked for.

Oh of course. However, as you're not shy of pointing out yourself. There were ( and I say were ) 55% of voters that DID want an equal say in all matters, regardless of geography or where their MP sits, in a UK parliament.

If English spending decisions impact on the Block Grant, too bad.

Really ? That's a little 'cavalier' of you.

I'm not very comfortable with these changes but it is the road that Nationalism has sent the UK down. Effectively, a couple of million Scots are doing their best to trash the UK for the other 60 million.

It's a disgrace but that's the road we're on and I don't really see how Nationalists can complain when another group seek to defend what they have.

The SNP as a matter of policy seek to divide and cause hatred. This is a result.

England dominates the UK parliament. That's why devolution was set up in the first place. 550 odd English MP's never have to worry much about being 'overruled'. In fact in the very rare times it's happened ie over tuition fees. There's an awful lot made of Scottish MP's voting for it despite the fact it didn't affect their own constituents... however, they were Labour MP's... and most English Labour MP's voted for them as well ! I'm not quite sure what you think England is defending itself against.. 59 MP's ?:cool:

The second, if more likely possible outcome is separation. English self-denial has been the glue holding the union together. It is melting. Both EVEL and the broader rise in an English sense of identity (comprehensively outlined in a 2012 paper by the IPPR, a think-tank) suggest that the United Kingdom is experiencing a great normalisation. Its constutitional imbalance is finally asserting itself.

A ship that has sailed forth for many years despite a strong tilt is finally listing towards the waves. Last year’s Scottish referendum—and the strong appetite for a rerun evinced at the recent Scottish National Party—suggests that it is already taking on water. EVEL may prove the point at which it tips too far; at which England’s reemergence accelerates and at which the ship capsizes.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2015/10/another-crack-union?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/st/englishonlyvotessetbritainonthepathtofederalisationorbreakup

Tromking

Leanne1812 wrote: »

Would you dispute what this MP has written in his blog about today's vote?

http://tommysheppardmp.scot/index.php/my-blogs/entry/made-some-history-not-in-a-good-way

Can't really disagree with much of that.
Trying to fit English suffrage in our now totally fooked up constitutional settlement is now impossible. A proper federal UK is the only answer. 4 National Assemblies with a smallish federal government on top dealing with defence and foreign policy etc. has to come and will do eventually I'm sure.

Leanne1812

Generali wrote: »

I'm not very comfortable with these changes but it is the road that Nationalism has sent the UK down. Effectively, a couple of million Scots are doing their best to trash the UK for the other 60 million.

It's a disgrace but that's the road we're on and I don't really see how Nationalists can complain when another group seek to defend what they have.

The SNP as a matter of policy seek to divide and cause hatred. This is a result.

It is not the SNP who have brought these changes into effect.

You see it completely different to what I do. The SNP want autonomy for Scotland, that's it. Is that really so bad or evil? No doubt I'm brainwashed.....

Try not to confuse the party & its aims with the few extremists who are on the fringes of the independence movement. You choose to see it as causing division & hatred. Once again they are the cause of all evil......

If this government is trying to preserve this Union today's vote appears utterly bizarre.

Leanne1812

Tromking wrote: »

Can't really disagree with much of that.
Trying to fit English suffrage in our now totally fooked up constitutional settlement is now impossible. A proper federal UK is the only answer. 4 National Assemblies with a smallish federal government on top dealing with defence and foreign policy etc. has to come and will do eventually I'm sure.

If devo max had been an option last year it would have won by a landslide I'm sure.

It's becoming pretty clear that the UK has quite divergent political ideals. This years election has hi-lighted that so I think federalism would be a popular choice.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Well, I'd replace anti-English with anti-Westminster.. but suspect the brown stuff will hit the fan round about, tax credits/Trident renewal vote time, quickly followed by the ( ever closing gap in the polls ) Eu Ref. No rush.

They'll need to do something about the Scottish Grand Committee as well. It's got a majority of English MP's on it. There won't be any Scots/Welsh/NI MP's allowed on the English one.

But yes, while most Scots are fine with the principle of EVEL. I doubt they're happy with Scots MP's ( from whatever party ) seemingly being less than equal in a UK parliament in order to achieve it. And the days of 'but you voted to stay part of the UK parliament/all MP's are UK MP's/count equally' are gone from today.

If indeed the Scots (do you mean SNP?) are OK with EVEL, why did Nicola threaten to vote against English Fox hunting?

Obviously EVEL means that Scottish MP can't vote on English matters which to the SNP means a (faux) 'unequal', just as English MPs aren't 'equal ' on Scottish matters.

The inequality started when Scotland got their own parliament : the inequality is the scottish hatred of the English and the kindness of the English to the Scots.

But we agree : let's hasten the next referendum.

Thrugelmir

Leanne1812 wrote: »

If this government is trying to preserve this Union today's vote appears utterly bizarre.

Why shouldn't English voters decide English only matters? Funny how everybody complains when the boot is on the foot. That's a consequence of life. Every action will create a reaction. You never know England may vote for Independence itself one day. Just let the nationalists of the other nations get on with it.