Hollaback

trailingspouse

It matters not one jot whether j.e.j. is male or female. It matters that s/he has suffered sexual harassment and thinks it's acceptable, or even fun. No-one has to put up with this j.e.j. Not you, not me, not anyone.

Also, the argument has taken a strange turn - it seems to have gone something like this:

Women say they don't want to be harassed. Women point out that it's intimidating/annoying/whatever. Someone points out that worse things happen in the world, and gives examples of these things, using that as proof that women have no right to complain about being intimidated/annoyed/whatever. And if women don't have the right to complain, ergo women have to put up with it.

A spurious argument, which does not stand up to logical analysis.

j.e.j.

As things seem to be getting misconstrued (no-one on here has said harrassment and unkind words are ok, though I did state they are part of life, yes) Lets start by defining sexual harrassment (as opposed to sexual banter)

Where does one start and the other stop? Genuine question.

Obviously leaning out of your car window and calling someone a ____ing fat old s--g is offensive and unacceptable. But what about this video above, where the lady is calling the guy handsome and feigning a swoon? Harrassment or banter?

If a stranger compliments you on your looks, is that being nice or is it harrassment.

If it's in the eye of the beholder, as it were, it would be difficult to legislate, because one person's idea of someone being friendly could be another's idea of someone being annoying.

Everyone has a right to be offended, but they don't have a right to silence others. To quote the great Mr Fry:

lulu_92

lulu_92 wrote: »

:rotfl:

When I was 18 I was approached in the street by a random guy who said he'd seen me around and I was beautiful. He then asked me to go for a drink and I politely declined, and we went our separate ways.

(ETA - this happened in winter, in the dark, in the rain. I was a bit creeped out but just dismissed it as someone trying to be nice)

Two weeks later there was a knock at my door and it was this guy! I asked him how he knew that I lived here and he said he saw me through my window :eek::eek::eek: Luckily I managed to get rid of him.

Another week or so later I was waiting in my front garden for a friend and this same guy tried to get me in his suspicious white van! :eek::eek::eek: Needless to say I managed to get away!


About a month after this I was at uni and a stallholder on campus started talking to me, then started trying to grope me and get me to go to his hotel room! I managed to get him banned from the university and I later found out that another city council had banned him from operating there because of similar accusations!

(ETA - The university decided to give me a rape alarm in case something happened again, but it never did..)

Just quoting my earlier post about my experiences of sexual harassment.

I may be wrong or right about this but to me hearing a catcall from a stranger leaves me divided.

On one hand (dependent on what it is) I sometimes think about my above experiences and become cautious.

Most of the time I disregard it as one comment from one person that I might not ever see again so why should the thought of what they've said occupy my mind? I'm obviously a better person for not thinking catcalling is okay and to give any form of reaction or show upset/anger is only what some of them want from doing it. And if they say something like "hey you nice bum/boobs/legs/etc" I will still ignore them, already aware that my bum/boobs/legs/etc are amazing and I knew that before they said it

Treat them like children and ignore them. I'm talking about men and women who catcall/have been catcalled.

[Deleted User]

j.e.j. wrote: »

As things seem to be getting misconstrued (no-one on here has said harrassment and unkind words are ok, though I did state they are part of life, yes) Lets start by defining sexual harrassment (as opposed to sexual banter)

Where does one start and the other stop? Genuine question.

Obviously leaning out of your car window and calling someone a ____ing fat old s--g is offensive and unacceptable. But what about this video above, where the lady is calling the guy handsome and feigning a swoon? Harrassment or banter?

If a stranger compliments you on your looks, is that being nice or is it harrassment.

If it's in the eye of the beholder, as it were, it would be difficult to legislate, because one person's idea of someone being friendly could be another's idea of someone being annoying.

Everyone has a right to be offended, but they don't have a right to silence others. To quote the great Mr Fry:

In the video I would say it was harassment.

As she is the host of the show she has a duty to look after the contestants and make them feel at ease. He was not in a position to say anything to her either as it was on T.V. Also, as he is about to take part in a quiz to try and win money embarrassing him is hardly relaxing.

The same comments in a bar - probably very flattering.

Stephen Fry is probably not the best person to quote on this thread as he has his own odd views about womens' sexuality. He seems especially knowledgeable about us considering he is a male, gay, celibate.

"I feel sorry for straight men. The only reason women will have sex with them is that sex is the price they are willing to pay for a relationship with a man, which is what they want," he said. "Of course, a lot of women will deny this and say, 'Oh no, but I love sex, I love it!'

Angry_Bear

j.e.j. wrote: »

I don't want to live in a world where people are afraid to have a laugh in case some professional offence-taker gets the hump. (And there's a fair few of them in life..).

Hmm, do you find it preferable to live in a world where people have to pretend that they aren't bothered by comments or that they find them funny when in reality they feel intimidated and vulnerable? That they have to put on a brave face to avoid being called a "professional offence-taker"?

The point I'm trying to make is that the vast majority of women on this thread (and in other responses to the Hollaback campaign) say that they dislike catcalling and find it intimidating and offensive. Though I doubt you mean it like that, you're effectively saying they should shut up and take it to avoid making a (metaphorical) scene.

Don't forget that any man who has read this thread or ones like it, surely knows by now that, the woman he's just shouted at probably (statistically speaking) feels uncomfortable and humiliated. And yet some will choose to do it anyway, and will justify themself because not all women mind, and those who do clearly don't have a sense of humour.

j.e.j.

Spider_In_The_Bath wrote: »

Stephen Fry is probably not the best person to quote on this thread as he has his own odd views about womens' sexuality. He seems especially knowledgeable about us considering he is a male, gay, celibate.

"I feel sorry for straight men. The only reason women will have sex with them is that sex is the price they are willing to pay for a relationship with a man, which is what they want," he said. "Of course, a lot of women will deny this and say, 'Oh no, but I love sex, I love it!'

That IS a strange quote, and (I'm guessing) was meant very tongue in cheek. But in the context of offence-taking, which can apply to men and women equally, the piece I quoted is relevant to this discussion.

j.e.j.

Angry_Bear wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make is that the vast majority of women on this thread (and in other responses to the Hollaback campaign) say that they dislike catcalling and find it intimidating and offensive. Though I doubt you mean it like that, you're effectively saying they should shut up and take it to avoid making a (metaphorical) scene.

I think you are reading far too much into things (or adding your own slant, I don't know).

But to get back to post 104, where would you draw the line between sexual banter and sexual harrassment? Are strangers allowed to speak to and chat-up women (or men for that matter), or is that not allowed?

If we take cat-calling to mean wolf-whistles, I don't think builders and the like do that now (wasn't there some law introduced?)

Angry_Bear

j.e.j. wrote: »

I think you are reading far too much into things (or adding your own slant, I don't know).

I was trying to say, possibly badly, that when the majority of a group says that they find something offensive or unpleasant, then maybe that should be taken seriously and the behaviour should be unacceptable. Rather than suggesting that this majority are overreacting.

But to get back to post 104, where would you draw the line between sexual banter and sexual harrassment? Are strangers allowed to speak to and chat-up women (or men for that matter), or is that not allowed?

Personally, I don't think making a personal comment or chatting up anyone you're passing in the street is okay (male or female). In a "stopped" situation (like a queue for example), making polite conversation is okay for either gender, but certainly no personal comments or comments on appearance. And certainly no pushing the point if the other person doesn't engage.
This holds whether it's chatting up or passing the time of day. Although in both cases comments on appearance aren't okay.

One of the problems is that it isn't clear what the social convetions are (or should be), and it is all just people's own opinions. Hopefully this sort of campaign can be used to help make it clear what is and what isn't okay to most people.

If we take cat-calling to mean wolf-whistles, I don't think builders and the like do that now (wasn't there some law introduced?)

I meant shouting any personal comment at a stranger on the street.

j.e.j.

Angry_Bear wrote: »

Personally, I don't think making a personal comment or chatting up anyone you're passing in the street is okay (male or female). In a "stopped" situation (like a queue for example), making polite conversation is okay for either gender, but certainly no personal comments or comments on appearance. And certainly no pushing the point if the other person doesn't engage.
This holds whether it's chatting up or passing the time of day. Although in both cases comments on appearance aren't okay.

One of the problems is that it isn't clear what the social convetions are (or should be), and it is all just people's own opinions. Hopefully this sort of campaign can be used to help make it clear what is and what isn't okay to most people.
I meant shouting any personal comment at a stranger on the street.

That's interesting, what you write. But sometimes the annoying remarks aren't necessarily of a sexual nature, like for instance you can be walking along the road and someone will shout "cheer up luv it might never 'appen!" (best thing there would be a witty rejoinder, like comedians do when they get heckled)

These things are a bit intrusive and unnecessary but I don't think you can go legislating about what people can and can't say in general conversation in day to day life.

Angry_Bear

j.e.j. wrote: »

These things are a bit intrusive and unnecessary but I don't think you can go legislating about what people can and can't say in general conversation in day to day life.

Legislating, no. But most of how we behave comes from conditioning and social acceptance rather than legislation.