Stay or go? EU poll - Oh the irony.

Conrad

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Countries the size of the UK don't get to be independent. They are either controlled by America, menaced by Russia and China, or churning around desperately in the wake of all three.

New Zealand, Australia, Japan, S Korea, Iceland, Switzerland, Norway and plenty others all heading in the right direction, all independent and proud.
I suppose they are hellish places to live what with their lack of ECHR's, supposed inability to police cross border and unable to influence EU rules, lol.


I cannot fathom this cowardly gotta be in the EU club mantra.

N1AK

Thrugelmir wrote: »

The failure of the EU to be willing to consider the UK's position is pretty appalling.

They are considering the UK's position, you're mistaking the fact that they didn't come to the same blinkered conclusion as UKIP and their zealots as lack of thought; Personally I see it as exercising some.

A vegan restaurant that refuses to serve meat is not 'appalling' because it won't agree to change it's menu to satisfy a customer who suddenly decides he's an omnivore.

If enough of the UK have decided they don't agree with the core principles of the EU then we should leave. It's typical blind europhobia to act like EU sticking with its founding principles is unfair on the UK.

CLAPTON

N1AK wrote: »

They are considering the UK's position, you're mistaking the fact that they didn't come to the same blinkered conclusion as UKIP and their zealots as lack of thought; Personally I see it as exercising some.

A vegan restaurant that refuses to serve meat is not 'appalling' because it won't agree to change it's menu to satisfy a customer who suddenly decides he's an omnivore.

If enough of the UK have decided they don't agree with the core principles of the EU then we should leave. It's typical blind europhobia to act like EU sticking with its founding principles is unfair on the UK.

one wonders what percentage of the people of the EU agree with the 'core' principles or indeed even know what they are?

N1AK

Conrad wrote: »

Japan, S Korea

So the best examples of proud 'independent' countries you can manage includes two which are entirely dependant on the US military and beholden to large chunks of American policy.

You might as well add Ukraine, Georgia and Syria to the list if you're aiming for humour.

danothy

CLAPTON wrote: »

we agree again

It seems the principle of application of judgement is not in question, just the quality of that judgement, and/or the underlying prejudices that cloud that judgement.

Conrad

Mass immigration;


+ more pressure on infrastructure


+ relentless building and expansion


+ crowds and congestion across much of the Southern halve of Britain


+ ever increasing food demand leading to ever more intensive and chemical agriculture


+ massive pressure on wildlife - wild spaces isolated from one another, millions of beasts killed by vehicles daily (including newts, frogs etc) and yes these things matter a hell of a lot more than the Human pest forever expanding


+ Sense of unfairness - my Brother recently divorced and having lost his assets cannot get housed, yet many local new migrants manage easily (the liberal establishment endlessly denies this as they are too far removed from trench life)


+ Sense of unfairness in that most people know lots of migrants working in the black economy and claiming housing benefit, but this reality is never captured in official stats, so we the public are endlessly hoodwinked by the liberal establishment / N1 / BBC / Guardian / Liberty / Helena Kennedy axis


+ Official stats never capture local realities, for example my own local town is easily 30% E European (letting and estate agents bare this out as does every day experience) yet official stats show only 3% are migrant!!! Again hopelessly naïve


+ Almost all workers in the thousands of kebab shops, fried chicken shops and the rest are not paying tax - I often deal with such enquiries, but again the naïve liberals have no concept of worlds like this and instead rely on surveys for their information - do we really think your average cash in hand car wash bod took part in an official survey!!


+ Many of us do not welcome economic growth at ANY cost, we value other things such as tranquillity in the green belt and not sitting in endless traffic

leveller2911

Generali wrote: »

Let's be clear. CLAPTON isn't exaggerating, (s)he's making up a bunch of things that don't happen and wondering why a Government I can't vote for doesn't do those things.

UKIP and all her happy followers are the 'acceptable' face of the NF/BNP.

What are you babbling about. Comparing UKIP with the old NF shows you up and not UKIP. If someone wants to join UKIP on the application form they are asked if they have ever been a member of the NF or the BNP if the answer was yes then they are barred from joining. Ex NF or BNP members are allowed to join Nu-Labour and the Tories. UKIP are a young party,naive and amateurish but so was the Labour party when it began.

Name me 1 UKIP policy that is racist ................

FWIW I don't believe for one moment that UKIP have all the answers but the 3 main Westminster parties have seriously lost the confidence of the public. Given the fact that UKIP have thousands of members who either migrated here or are 2nd or 3rd generation migrants. There is a problem with public services , hospitals,schools etc. If you bothered to come home go to Lincolnshire and visit some of the local schools where there are literally over a dozen different immigrant nationalities catered for.


No party has released their manifestos yet but here is a link to what UKIP would like/intend to do. Its not perfect and much of it probably won't happen because they won't be in power however the Lib Dems have a manifesto and they will be slaughtered at the 2015GE..

I'm quite surprised that you would be so ignorant in your views. Its all very well for middle class white collar workers slating the working class but the middle class are not affected by the mass immigration of low skilled workers from the EU. "It doesn't affect me so why should I give a f*ck" is such a selfish attitude. Just to add ,in my family there are skilled migrants from Malaysia and Indonesia ,I have a cousin who is black and all of them have major concerns on the influx of immigration on the NHS,schools, housing etc. I'm no racist Gen and I want immigration but I want good quality immigration .I don't want low skilled NMW earning carrot pickers and delivery drivers paying next to no tax but quaifying for in work benefits whilst we have 2,000,000 unemployed ,most of whom can work.

I also want the power to stop the criminal eliment from the EU coming here.You can be a convicted murderer from Lativa walk in.

Given the fact that the EU has openly admitted that there will be further integration into a Federlist superstate we have a simple choice either we control our own destiny or we will be ruled by unelected bureaucrats.

If you can be bothered heres the link:

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people?utm_campaign=preview_policy&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ukip#

N1AK

CLAPTON wrote: »

one wonders what percentage of the people of the EU agree with the 'core' principles or indeed even know what they are?

I expect a higher number than know all British laws they could be held to: nobody. How about the proportion of people who could explain how the sitting members of the house of lords are determined? How supreme court members got there?

I'd expect that the broad idea of free movement of people within the EU is a pretty widely understood concept.

Conrad

N1AK wrote: »

So the best examples of proud 'independent' countries you can manage includes two which are entirely dependant on the US military and beholden to large chunks of American policy.

Japan, Australia, Canada NZ, S Korea and the others are independent and yes like to enjoy the benefits of NATO type arrangements and contribute towards mutual security.


They are none the less autonomous locally determined sovereign nations with no need of a federal club.


Your point is?
Are these places doomed as they are not in the EU, lol.

N1AK

leveller2911 wrote: »

Comparing UKIP with the old NF shows you up and not UKIP. If someone wants to join UKIP on the application form they are asked if they have ever been a member of the NF or the BNP if the answer was yes then they are barred from joining. Ex NF or BNP members are allowed to join Nu-Labour and the Tories. UKIP are a young party,naive and amateurish but so was the Labour party when it began.

Britain First are openly supporting UKIP, and correctly telling their members to ignore UKIP's protestations against far right parties as they are purely political.

The stupidity required to think UKIP's BNP ban proves anything is staggering. Firstly because it's meaningless and doens't stop current or former BNP members from joining without declaring it. Secondly, it's only because UKIP are so appealing to the kind of people in the BNP/NF that they'd have to do something to stop them joining.

I take it you'd suggest the 'we love minorities and immigrants' party were more racist than UKIP if they didn't ban BNP members (even though no BNP member would want to join them).