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Stay or go? EU poll - Oh the irony.
Comments
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ruggedtoast wrote: »At least in Europe we have a decent amount of say over our own politics, and are not completely forced to follow a right wing free market political strategy that doesn't suit us, which is the price exacted for American protection.
Well, EU directives do force privatisation, competition, limits on state aid; and the implementation of TTIP will have consequences there too.
When EU law takes precedent over UK law it's hard to argue we're any less forced by the EU than by the US.
Honestly some days I think the direction of travel is globalisation, and we are best making the most of it at the centre of Europe, if it means a better chance of peace and stability we should give up some sovereignty. Then other days I think Europe is a sinking ship and we are daft to give up a thousand years of independence to join it...
I'm glad I don't have to make the final decision (even if I do get a vote in a referendum).“I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled.” - P.G. Wodehouse0 -
As long as we are a member of the club then we have given up our sovereignty and control of our borders and much else beside.
The option is leave or conform. There is no negotiation.
That's not true. As with any club the rules are in a constant state of flux and those rule changes come as a result of negotiation and compromise.
If we can't negotiate what we want and we think the benefits of getting whatever it is we want outweigh the benefits of membership then we should leave.
Let's not be under any illusions. No one gives a !!!! about 'sovereignty and much else besides' - the debate will be about immigration, bendy bananas and nothing else. Therefore there will be no rational debate.Your view of Graham or Cameron is not relevant to the essential lose of UK parliamentary control of our policies (and adds nothing to the debate).
I disagree. I've had a little Graham* on my shoulder for a few years now. In any given situation I say to him 'what would you do in this situation Graham?' and then do the opposite. It's been a brilliant strategy for me.
*Any resemblance to real Grahams living or dead, is purely coincidental0 -
ruggedtoast wrote: »Countries the size of the UK don't get to be independent. They are either controlled by America, menaced by Russia and China, or churning around desperately in the wake of all three.
How menaced by Russia or China?
Have you never considered that some countries may want to be close to one of these, and this is best economically for some? My home country and two surrounding it are (IMO) menaced by Europe, in US-sponsored rigged elections, largely to instill what the US feels is some form of 'democracy'.
I don't disagree with this, however I still believe that for some countries, the EU isn't the right way forward, especially regarding the countries that produce little, but sell largely Eastwards.At least in Europe we have a decent amount of say over our own politics, and are not completely forced to follow a right wing free market political strategy that doesn't suit us, which is the price exacted for American protection.
My country has been split into two (pro EU-Russia), same now with Ukraine. Had America and the EU treated these countries with any form of soverignity, then I have severe doubts the damage that has been caused, would have been.That's not true. As with any club the rules are in a constant state of flux and those rule changes come as a result of negotiation and compromise.
However this is the case with any nation, it's just a case of it being easier negotiating as a 'lump' than individually.
The UK has IRO 13% of the population of the EU, and pushing 20% of the economy, so it shouldn't be too difficult, however for the UK, I believe that staying in the EU is the best way to do things.
IMO, the easiest way is to create an open space from Lisbon to Vladivostok, with no committments on EU membership. I doubt this will happen in my lifetime, if at all however.💙💛 💔0 -
Let's not be under any illusions. No one gives a !!!! about 'sovereignty and much else besides' - the debate will be about immigration, bendy bananas and nothing else. Therefore there will be no rational debate.
Immigration is a rational debate. Housing, schools, the NHS, water supplies, road systems, transport systems etc. There is a physical limit. This is an island.
The failure of the EU to be willing to consider the UK's position is pretty appalling. Telling us to cut back on benefits and welfare spending so that the UK is not an attractive option is sheer nonense. More so that it comes from people that are totally unelected.0 -
CKhalvashi wrote: »How menaced by Russia or China?
Have you never considered that some countries may want to be close to one of these, and this is best economically for some? My home country and two surrounding it are (IMO) menaced by Europe, in US-sponsored rigged elections, largely to instill what the US feels is some form of 'democracy'.
I don't disagree with this, however I still believe that for some countries, the EU isn't the right way forward, especially regarding the countries that produce little, but sell largely Eastwards.
My country has been split into two (pro EU-Russia), same now with Ukraine. Had America and the EU treated these countries with any form of soverignity, then I have severe doubts the damage that has been caused, would have been..
It doesn't matter what they want. What they get is American hegemony or Russian and Chinese pressure to shape a new world order.
You could certainly argue that China's near abroad is a lot better off being near China than Latin America is by being next to the USA.
At least Thailand can keep overthrowing its own leaders rather than having the CIA do it.0 -
Thrugelmir wrote: »Immigration is a rational debate. Housing, schools, the NHS, water supplies, road systems, transport systems etc. There is a physical limit. This is an island.
Immigration could be debated rationally. Let's see if that's the debate we get.Thrugelmir wrote: »The failure of the EU to be willing to consider the UK's position is pretty appalling. Telling us to cut back on benefits and welfare spending so that the UK is not an attractive option is sheer nonense. More so that it comes from people that are totally unelected.
I've heard 'take control of our borders' uttered a few time but has the UK submitted a proposal as to how they think immigration should be controlled? Has a unilateral solution been mooted? How can the UK's position be considered when it's so vague and woolly?0 -
ruggedtoast wrote: »He's like a man walking into oddbins with an oddbins loyalty card and feigning indignation because they won't let him start opening bottles before he's paid for anything.
.
He is like a feather floating in the wind
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers visible or invisible giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the worlds wealthiest and most prosperous people' Margaret Thatcher0 -
Our manifest destiny is to eventually go 'balls deep' into a Federal Europe, its only because we are the 'Texas' of Europe as regards our attitudes that we are currently procrastinating about doing so. The democracy deficit in the EU will need to be sorted before we sign up fully as we British quite rightly care about such things. The nation state is on its last knockings and I look forward to the day when the security of my kids and grandchildren will be made all the more secure by being part of a large continental democracy like the the United States of Europe.“Britain- A friend to all, beholden to none”. 🇬🇧0
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I answered your previous question perfectly well.
Now you seem to be asking if anyone else wants to rule Aus. Nobody seems to have stated as much but there seems to be an assumption that Indonesia would invade given half a chance.
The rest of your answer is the usual straw man crap that I hoped you'd refrain from but, as always when dealing with [STRIKE]racists[/STRIKE] nationalists they are unable to remain rational and resort to abuse because there is no rational argument for [STRIKE]racism[/STRIKE] nationalism.
Why do you hate foreigners?
In this instance, I will take a charitable view that your post was written under the influence of various substances.0
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