Replacing my economical run about car??

BeenThroughItAll

darkmatter101 wrote: »

When the E39 M5 came out it was the most advanced and FASTEST saloon car ever.

I think you'll find that in 1998, the Lotus Carlton was still the fastest production saloon car, and IIRC remained so until 2002 when the Audi RS6 took that title off it.

BeenThroughItAll

darkmatter101 wrote: »

The M3's V8 as well as its suspension and chassis clearly has superior technology and engineering to a lot of other cars that makes it grip so well and rev very quickly to redline.

We weren't talking about suspension. I asked you exactly what it is that makes the M3's engine so special? What's so different about it?

I repeat, since you're still living in M3-Blinker-Land:

THE ENGINE IS NOT MORE ADVANCED. IT MAY BE BETTER ENGINEERED, BUT IT IS NOT MORE ADVANCED.

You know what, I can't be !!!!!d trying to talk sense into you. You're past that.

Let me finish this post with one final thought thanks to sniffpetrol.com:

JustinR1979

BeenThroughItAll wrote: »

I think you'll find that in 1998, the Lotus Carlton was still the fastest production saloon car, and IIRC remained so until 2002 when the Audi RS6 took that title off it.

True enough. Without the limiter I believe the M5 will hit 186, many quote this, but maybe that is to do with the speed limit you can set, which tops out at 186.
I can only say they'll do 165 in 5th


I know the Vectra Vxr was one of the quickest saloons you could buy, because it had no limiter, and that's a fwd dog....




Do you know how long I've wanted a Lotus Carlton for?!
Not seen one for years.
Last one I saw up close was 10 years ago, fag butts spilling out the ashtray, and an old tyre slung on the back seat

darkmatter101

BeenThroughItAll wrote: »

We weren't talking about suspension. I asked you exactly what it is that makes the M3's engine so special? What's so different about it?

I repeat, since you're still living in M3-Blinker-Land:

THE ENGINE IS NOT MORE ADVANCED. IT MAY BE BETTER ENGINEERED, BUT IT IS NOT MORE ADVANCED.

You know what, I can't be !!!!!d trying to talk sense into you. You're past that.

Let me finish this post with one final thought thanks to sniffpetrol.com:

You say that the V8 M3 engine is simply better 'engineered.' I am not a mechanic or an Engineer by profession. I did in fact do a Mechanical Engineering degree some years ago, but my professional work has nothing to do with Engineering. 'Engineering' can be a very broad term and the phrase 'to engineer' among society can be thrown around a lot. For the average Joe it can mean, and be a combination of the following; creative design, innovation, quality control, manufacturing practices, durability, strength, tolerances etc. I presume when you say the BMW M3 is better engineered you mean it more so in the context of durability, strength, assembly and tolerance. However this leaves out the innovation/science & technology part.

I have not been a part of the R&D of the M division and because it is so overarching and is an accumulation of knowledge of 20 plus years, it just isn't an area where I am able to comment on. I'm sure you would agree that a BMW, and a BMW engine, a lot of it is an assembly of different parts (or systems) that are made and supplied by other companies. All I am suggesting is that is it most likely that the level of technology, science and engineering that goes into developing these new parts (i.e. engine sensors, pistons etc) would be superior in a BMW than a Ford/Vauxhall. BMW would source more 'premium' suppliers, who invest more in their R&D and as a result are more innovative with the technology.

The fundamental technology, internal combustion engine, remains the same, simply converting one energy into a form of another but that can be said about most things in the world. The only things that can supersede or revolutionise our world would be something in the arena of quantum mechanics. However what makes the M3 more advanced I would guess is that the parts used to create the V8 engine are using relatively cutting edge technology in the automotive industry, even though the fundamental principle of converting organic energy to kinetic energy remains the same.

BeenThroughItAll

JustinR1979 wrote: »

True enough. Without the limiter I believe the M5 will hit 186, many quote this, but maybe that is to do with the speed limit you can set, which tops out at 186.
I can only say they'll do 165 in 5th

I know the Vectra Vxr was one of the quickest saloons you could buy, because it had no limiter, and that's a fwd dog....

Do you know how long I've wanted a Lotus Carlton for?!
Not seen one for years.
Last one I saw up close was 10 years ago, fag butts spilling out the ashtray, and an old tyre slung on the back seat

My E39 M5 was de-limited, and I back up your figures based on what was achievable on an RAF base runway.


One of my colleague's dad's had a Lotus Carlton as a company car (his company of course!) in 1991. The gearbox, which was apparently a common weak spot, was replaced under warranty only a few thousand miles after he bought it. Since the boxes weren't that useful for any other model, the garage gave him the old one. About six months later, the car started running rough and was diagnosed with a melted piston. The garage decided to replace the engine and gearbox under warranty, so he put the knackered box back on.


When he got the car back, he took the brand new gearbox off and put his part-worn but still-working one on, used the car for another year, then handed it back.


In 2011, he sold that brand new gearbox for nearly two grand.

BeenThroughItAll

darkmatter101 wrote: »

You say that the V8 M3 engine is simply better 'engineered.' I am not a mechanic or an Engineer by profession. I did in fact do a Mechanical Engineering degree some years ago, but my professional work has nothing to do with Engineering. 'Engineering' can be a very broad term and the phrase 'to engineer' among society can be thrown around a lot. For the average Joe it can mean, and be a combination of the following; creative design, innovation, quality control, manufacturing practices, durability, strength, tolerances etc. I presume when you say the BMW M3 is better engineered you mean it more so in the context of durability, strength, assembly and tolerance. However this leaves out the innovation/science & technology part.

I have not been a part of the R&D of the M division and because it is so overarching and is an accumulation of knowledge of 20 plus years, it just isn't an area where I am able to comment on. I'm sure you would agree that a BMW, and a BMW engine, a lot of it is an assembly of different parts (or systems) that are made and supplied by other companies. All I am suggesting is that is it most likely that the level of technology, science and engineering that goes into developing these new parts (i.e. engine sensors, pistons etc) would be superior in a BMW than a Ford/Vauxhall. BMW would source more 'premium' suppliers, who invest more in their R&D and as a result are more innovative with the technology.

The fundamental technology, internal combustion engine, remains the same, simply converting one energy into a form of another but that can be said about most things in the world. The only things that can supersede or revolutionise our world would be something in the arena of quantum mechanics. However what makes the M3 more advanced I would guess is that the parts used to create the V8 engine are using relatively cutting edge technology in the automotive industry, even though the fundamental principle of converting organic energy to kinetic energy remains the same.

Good job words aren't rationed, because you've used a lot of them to say nothing at all.


Anyway, I'm glad to see you agree with me that the M3 engine isn't any more advanced than many others.


So, individual components of the M3 engine may be manufactured better or to higher standards. Maybe it has forged pistons, shot-peened forged rods, sodium filled valves, titanium valve springs, control electronics, nitrided crankshaft, etc etc; but that's not new technology. It's just applying better engineering to a problem. That doesn't make the M3 engine any more advanced, it's just made of higher quality parts; still ultimately suck; squeeze; bang; blow though.

JustinR1979

BeenThroughItAll wrote: »

My E39 M5 was de-limited, and I back up your figures based on what was achievable on an RAF base runway.


One of my colleague's dad's had a Lotus Carlton as a company car (his company of course!) in 1991. The gearbox, which was apparently a common weak spot, was replaced under warranty only a few thousand miles after he bought it. Since the boxes weren't that useful for any other model, the garage gave him the old one. About six months later, the car started running rough and was diagnosed with a melted piston. The garage decided to replace the engine and gearbox under warranty, so he put the knackered box back on.


When he got the car back, he took the brand new gearbox off and put his part-worn but still-working one on, used the car for another year, then handed it back.


In 2011, he sold that brand new gearbox for nearly two grand.

It got to 165 easily enough so assumed it would top 180 without much sweat


Shame to hear about the Carlton issues, maybe Vauxhall had too much to do with it


As to M3 engines, the 3.0 litre I had must have been engineered well. I read they could use a lot of oil due to higher output.
Mine went from 100k to 140k with a raised rev limit of 7700, and didn't use one drop.
M engines do seem to go on and on.

BeenThroughItAll

JustinR1979 wrote: »

As to M3 engines, the 3.0 litre I had must have been engineered well. I read they could use a lot of oil due to higher output.
Mine went from 100k to 140k with a raised rev limit of 7700, and didn't use one drop.
M engines do seem to go on and on.

My 3.2 Evo never drank a sip of oil between services. Mind you, I was changing it every 4.5K, so not much chance to.


SMG gearbox was a piece of crap, however, that's why I got rid of it and bought the E39.

JustinR1979

I dread to think. Even the E46 smg is only any good when flat out.
Any idea on the 535d? Fancy one, but auto only.

BeenThroughItAll

JustinR1979 wrote: »

I dread to think. Even the E46 smg is only any good when flat out.
Any idea on the 535d? Fancy one, but auto only.

Yeah, the early SMG wasn't good. It was a bit *too* early in the development of such things really, and used to go wrong for fun; unfortunately the first generation SMG box really does give the lie to darkmatter's 'BMW is best' mantra. It was a complete POS from start to finish.

One of the directors has a 535d touring. Great bit of kit, drives beautifully, very quiet, very quick indeed (in real world use it's just as quick as anything else Bavaria's got out there), extremely comfortable, nice ride, good level of kit, and genuinely does over 40mpg without too much effort.