Tesco consider adding the points of discarded receipt as theft

lucy03

Cornucopia wrote: »

Let's be clear. I don't think that Tescos should place the Guard in the position where he is required to exercise legal decision-making that he is unlikely to have the training or qualifications to accomplish fairly and with due regard for the Law.

Let's give an example of Tesco Lore: the idea that a Clubcard point has a monetary value in and of itself.

Another one: the idea that there is an offence of attempting to misappropriate another person's Clubcard points after they have discarded them, and that that offence is "theft".

The police and CPS will make decisions on what is and isn't illegal and what should be pursued via the criminal courts. It's unlikely Tesco would ever seek to pursue this route for Clubcard points, unless it was a large amount.

The store detectives and management are often entirely able to see when people shop-lift items or steal Clubcard points. They don't have to make any legal decisions (unless they want the matter pursued further), they just have to decide whether they want that customer in their stores again. I personally applaud the fact that they don't.

Cyberman60

Sooler wrote: »

Stick with the lifetime ban - no loss.

Exactly, especially if there is an Aldi nearby.

lucy03

Cornucopia wrote: »

As I said, I have done this many times with Morrisons Vouchers. Indeed, there is a thriving market for them on eBay.

So, no, it is not common sense. And if Tescos value their Clubcard points, the most obvious thing is for them to do is to take better care of them.

Tesco often place security tags on alcohol and expensive meats to try and cut the amount of them that are stolen. They're sensible IMO to do that.

However just because someone pinches a pack of sweets doesn't mean that Tesco were careless in not also placing security tags on those. I don't think it's a difficult concept that people shouldn't steal or go around looking for Tesco receipts that they can pretend were theirs.

topdaddy_2

Cornucopia wrote: »

I didn't say that - I said they had less extensive rights than individuals, which is an accurate summary of the law. And I also said that it was appropriate that that should be the case.
Are you saying that Corporations should have the same rights we do? How would that even work?
Let's be clear. I don't think that Tescos should place the Guard in the position where he is required to exercise legal decision-making that he is unlikely to have the training or qualifications to accomplish fairly and with due regard for the Law.
Let's give an example of Tesco Lore: the idea that a Clubcard point has a monetary value in and of itself.
Another one: the idea that there is an offence of attempting to misappropriate another person's Clubcard points after they have discarded them, and that that offence is "theft".
And as I said, I see this as raising similar issues to the more widely accepted principles with regards to TV Licensing and PPCs.
BBC/TVL Lore: every householder must account to TVL for their licence status, and be prepared to have it checked.
PPC Lore: any driver breaching the parking Ts & Cs is liable for a penalty charge.
These statements are untrue, and the organisations making them are a menace to society. What's more, I'm pretty sure they know they are lying when they make such statements - which makes it doubly offensive.

Does it state anywhere that receipts are not transferable for the purpose of claiming the points? That would be clarity.

Does it state anywhere that Tescos believe (whether it is true or not) that Clubcard points can be stolen, and that will treat such an offence as if it were theft?

Confirmation that you do not understand the simple situation. And tv liscence? Do they do club card points:rotfl: idiotic to mention it.

Cornucopia

lucy03 wrote: »

Tesco often place security tags on alcohol and expensive meats to try and cut the amount of them that are stolen. They're sensible IMO to do that.

However just because someone pinches a pack of sweets doesn't mean that Tesco were careless in not also placing security tags on those. I don't think it's a difficult concept that people shouldn't steal or go around looking for Tesco receipts that they can pretend were theirs.

Tesco have designed the entire Clubcard system from scratch. (Unlike the sweets, which have existed for some while, and the general shopping experience).

Given that Clubcard is designed and operated by Tesco, and indeed, that Clubcard points only exist on systems implemented by Tesco, I don't think it is asking much for them to design in whatever measures they see fit to achieve whatever aims they have for it, including its security.

To fail to do so, and then throw one's weight about in other ways when the system fails to achieve what they want is somewhat churlish IMHO.

Cornucopia

lucy03 wrote: »

The police and CPS will make decisions on what is and isn't illegal and what should be pursued via the criminal courts. It's unlikely Tesco would ever seek to pursue this route for Clubcard points, unless it was a large amount.

So it's not a matter of principle, then?

They don't have to make any legal decisions (unless they want the matter pursued further), they just have to decide whether they want that customer in their stores again.

If they are making a public allegation that a crime has been committed, and they know that is not true, it is typically defamation to do it. If someone is detained against their will, and they have not committed an arrestable offence, then that is false imprisonment.

lucy03 wrote: »

IMO none of these are issues in law. If someone shop-lifts from Tesco or steals their Clubcard Points, then Tesco are entitled to ban them from their stores. There is no debate which Tesco needs to engage in regarding this.

I said at the outset that Tesco has the right to ban anyone, subject to the laws on discrimination.

The issue is whether attempting to misappropriate Clubcard points is theft. And we are no closer to a definitive view on that.

It raises some interesting questions...

Do Tescos own the air in their stores? (Some people would say that air is more tangiable that loyalty points).
Do Tescos own the discarded packaging in their stores, such as cardboard boxes, plastic wrap, etc.?
Do Tescos own the physical receipt issued by their tills once it has been given to a customer?
If that receipt is discarded by that original customer, what is its status then? Does it return to being Tesco's property?
Do Tescos have the right to detain anyone found on their premises for any reason of their choosing?

powerful_Rogue

Cornucopia wrote: »

If they are making a public allegation that a crime has been committed, and they know that is not true, it is typically defamation to do it. If someone is detained against their will, and they have not committed an arrestable offence, then that is false imprisonment.

Its not a public allegation. Tesco didn't come on here and post this thread, the OP did. Did the OP say he was detained against his will? You seem to be making more and more up with each post.

The issue is whether attempting to misappropriate Clubcard points is theft. And we are no closer to a definitive view on that.

You seem to have disregarded my replies. One mentioning the law that would cover this and secondly the case that went through court where someone was found guilty of fraud my false representation.

It raises some interesting questions...

Do Tescos own the air in their stores? (Some people would say that air is more tangiable that loyalty points).

Ridiculous comparison.

Do Tescos own the discarded packaging in their stores, such as cardboard boxes, plastic wrap, etc.?

Absoultely they do. Although if you ask for some empty cardboard boxes they are very accommodating
.

Do Tescos own the physical receipt issued by their tills once it has been given to a customer?

Nope, that becomes the property of the customer.

If that receipt is discarded by that original customer, what is its status then? Does it return to being Tesco's property?

Nope, it is still the property of the person Tesco issued it to.

Do Tescos have the right to detain anyone found on their premises for any reason of their choosing?

Another ridiculous question.

Cornucopia

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

Its not a public allegation. Tesco didn't come on here and post this thread, the OP did.

The OP does not describe in detail, the manner of his apprehension, other than that he was in the queue at the CS desk. That, to me, is a public enough place.

Did the OP say he was detained against his will? You seem to be making more and more up with each post.

The OP said: "He took me to the back room". Which is ambiguous as to whether he went willingly.

You seem to have disregarded my replies. One mentioning the law that would cover this...

Apologies if you managed to make a novel point on this. I will go back and have a look. If you simply said: the law covers this, and did not back it up with references or qualifications... not so much.

edit: With regards to "gain", this means money or money's worth. In this case, the points are not worth money until and unless they are exchanged later. So there might be issues with the timing and conditionality of this in terms of proving the offence.

With regards to dishonesty, this was assumed by the Guard. Had the OP intended to go to CS and ASK whether he could claim someone else's points, we agree that that would not have been an offence. That couldn't have happened because he was apprehended before that point.

... and secondly the case that went through court where someone was found guilty of fraud my false representation.

That was about the misappropriation of money.

Absoultely they do. Although if you ask for some empty cardboard boxes they are very accommodating

So different to Aldi and Lidl, then (who let you remove boxes from the shop floor without permission)? How is a customer to know these things?

Nope, that becomes the property of the customer.
Nope, it is still the property of the person Tesco issued it to.

So... in the OP's tale of woe, Tesco's have no rights to the physical receipt, and possession of it is not theft.

powerful_Rogue

Cornucopia wrote: »

The OP does not describe in detail, the manner of his apprehension, other than that he was in the queue at the CS desk. That, to me, is a public enough place.

The OP said: "He took me to the back room". Which is ambiguous as to whether he went willingly.

Im sure if the OP was dragged kicking and screaming into the back room he would have said this in his original post. Likewise, if the OP had refused to goto the back room, im sure he would have said this as well.

Apologies if you managed to make a novel point on this. I will go back and have a look. If you simply said: the law covers this, and did not back it up with references or qualifications... not so much.

The law is the law. It dosent need backing up with qualifications - Its there for all to see.

So different to Aldi and Lidl, then (who let you remove boxes from the shop floor without permission)? How is a customer to know these things?

This isnt Aldi or Lidl though, this is Tesco. Tesco, or the Tescos I have been in dont leave cardboard boxes laying around. If you ask them though, they are always willing to help.

So... in the OP's tale of woe, Tesco's have no rights to the physical receipt, and possession of it is not theft.

You seem to be getting confused over this matter. This isnt about the physical receipt, this is about the fraudulent claiming of points.

Cornucopia

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

Im sure if the OP was dragged kicking and screaming into the back room he would have said this in his original post. Likewise, if the OP had refused to goto the back room, im sure he would have said this as well.

It doesn't require force to have been used for a person to be detained against their will.

If the OP had simply walked away out of the store, and the Guard had let him, I think he would have said.

The law is the law. It dosent need backing up with qualifications - Its there for all to see.

If only... Lawyers get paid a fortune to interpret law in favour of their clients.

This isnt Aldi or Lidl though, this is Tesco. Tesco, or the Tescos I have been in dont leave cardboard boxes laying around. If you ask them though, they are always willing to help.

Or choose any other characteristic of the shopping experience in which one supermarket differs from another... the point is the same.

You seem to be getting confused over this matter. This isnt about the physical receipt, this is about the fraudulent claiming of points.

My point is that if possession of the physical receipt is not an offence, then the Guard was clearly making an assumption about the OP's intentions that may not have been justified.

See also my point about asking at CS...