How would the UK fare without Scotland?

Generali

zagubov wrote: »

Unfortunately "having your cake and eating it" has become a meaningless phrase trotted out whenever it becomes clear that Scotland only wants to end the joint parliament.

It seems to imply that anything short of North Korea style isolation is somehow perverse, when in the modern world of international diplomacy, the reverse is true.

Well I gave some pretty substantive examples that go to the heart of the BS that the SNP and apologists come out with, not just a meaningless phrase.

Easier just to slate the phrase used to introduce the points than to address the points themselves of course or the issue behind it which is that the SNP are offering a model of independence that will never be accepted by the EU, NATO and UK.

Generali

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No at the current time Scotland only returns the same number of MEPS as Luxembourg.. With independence there will be more ? Are you drunk ? Where do you go from that to people voting Yes hating English people ?

Genuinely puzzled.. And probably says more about your mindset than mine to be honest. Why bring 'hate' into these things all the time.

Hmm. Drunk. Ad hominem attacks always show that the argument is lost.

It's before 10am here so a bit early for me. I find it rather sad that 2 people saw fit to thank your nasty, bitter little post.

Shakethedisease

Generali wrote: »

Well I gave some pretty substantive examples that go to the heart of the BS that the SNP and apologists come out with, not just a meaningless phrase.

Easier just to slate the phrase used to introduce the points than to address the points themselves of course or the issue behind it which is that the SNP are offering a model of independence that will never be accepted by the EU, NATO and UK.

The UK as we know it will no longer exist if there's a Yes vote. The EU situation is unprecedented. And NATO have more members without nukes than with.

And the SNP are only offering their model. It may never happen. We're not voting for SNP policies. We're voting to break away from a Westminster parliament or not.

Quite frankly given the amount of negativity that the SNP and anyone else Yes leaning has had to put up with over the last 2 years.. I'm delighted the polls are still as high as they currently are for Yes. The No side, with all they've thrown at this.. and sucking people as intelligent as you in too... because you're all totally convinced utterly this is Salmond's 'show' and Scots are doomed if there's a Yes vote. Well, No should be cantering ahead with an emphatic lead right now. Annihilation IF all had went to plan should be beckoning by now and showing itself for the Yes side to be totally and utterly unwinnable.

Only it's not is it ? Even the poll of polls today with the Scotsman trumpeting it, and popping the champagne corks.. only needs a 7 point swing. And it's nothing the campaign team on the Yes side haven't managed before. So, no, there's definitely no grounds for any complacency whatsoever if you're after a No vote. But... there should be. Shouldn't there by now ?

I don't think things are going quite to plan... Last two referenda have had Scots voting for more independence be it an assembly or devolution. Independence is the next step ( thought I personally would totally have gone for Devo max if it had been on offer ).

The real campaign starts the minute the Commonwealth Games are over. No is nowhere near, not even close to the 65% plus where it hoped to be in the polls right now for an emphatic win. Clinging on by virtue of Alastair Darling, Gordon Brown, Jim Murphy, Anas Sawar and Danny Alexander. And we don't like them much. Not even Labour voters do.

Forget about what the UK 'want's Generali. This is a vote for Scots residents alone. And what they want. NATO doesn't figure that high on the agenda. Nor as I posted before does the currency. We're looking in, not out. There's no time to waste on any 'hate' directed outwards south of the border. There are far more important things on Scot's minds, Yes or No voters, to waste on THAT ! We've all for far more to think about and decide on than petty bigotry.

CLAPTON

zagubov wrote: »

I don't know if Australia's been following the commonwealth games but it should be obvious that there's no anti-English feeling there.

I guess anyone that could conclude that, would also have watched the Olympics and concluded that there was peace and contentment every where in the world and that peace reigns supreme.


Presumably the sort of person that thinks the Flower of Scotland is an awkwardly written love song to the English.

Moby

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The UK as we know it will no longer exist if there's a Yes vote. The EU situation is unprecedented. And NATO have more members without nukes than with.

And the SNP are only offering their model. It may never happen. We're not voting for SNP policies. We're voting to break away from a Westminster parliament or not.

Quite frankly given the amount of negativity that the SNP and anyone else Yes leaning has had to put up with over the last 2 years.. I'm delighted the polls are still as high as they currently are for Yes. The No side, with all they've thrown at this.. and sucking people as intelligent as you in too... because you're all totally convinced utterly this is Salmond's 'show' and Scots are doomed if there's a Yes vote. Well, No should be cantering ahead with an emphatic lead right now. Annihilation IF all had went to plan should be beckoning by now and showing itself for the Yes side to be totally and utterly unwinnable.

Only it's not is it ? Even the poll of polls today with the Scotsman trumpeting it, and popping the champagne corks.. only needs a 7 point swing. And it's nothing the campaign team on the Yes side haven't managed before. So, no, there's definitely no grounds for any complacency whatsoever if you're after a No vote. But... there should be. Shouldn't there by now ?

I don't think things are going quite to plan... Last two referenda have had Scots voting for more independence be it an assembly or devolution. Independence is the next step ( thought I personally would totally have gone for Devo max if it had been on offer ).

The real campaign starts the minute the Commonwealth Games are over. No is nowhere near, not even close to the 65% plus where it hoped to be in the polls right now for an emphatic win. Clinging on by virtue of Alastair Darling, Gordon Brown, Jim Murphy, Anas Sawar and Danny Alexander. And we don't like them much. Not even Labour voters do.

Forget about what the UK 'want's Generali. This is a vote for Scots residents alone. And what they want. NATO doesn't figure that high on the agenda. Nor as I posted before does the currency. We're looking in, not out. There's no time to waste on any 'hate' directed outwards south of the border. There are far more important things on Scot's minds, Yes or No voters, to waste on THAT ! We've all for far more to think about and decide on than petty bigotry.

Good post. You have your finger on the pulse. I've been talking to a few in Glasgow and they all say it's wide open mainly because there is a large constituency of voters who will come out for this referendum and are more likely to vote yes because they tend to be poor and economically disadvantaged and are not being picked up by the polling companies.
Speaking peronally I'll be very down if Scotland go independent because we'll then be subjected to a permanent South East based right wing govmt in Westminster without the balance Scotland provides.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The UK as we know it will no longer exist if there's a Yes vote. The EU situation is unprecedented. And NATO have more members without nukes than with.

And the SNP are only offering their model. It may never happen. We're not voting for SNP policies. We're voting to break away from a Westminster parliament or not.

Quite frankly given the amount of negativity that the SNP and anyone else Yes leaning has had to put up with over the last 2 years.. I'm delighted the polls are still as high as they currently are for Yes. The No side, with all they've thrown at this.. and sucking people as intelligent as you in too... because you're all totally convinced utterly this is Salmond's 'show' and Scots are doomed if there's a Yes vote. Well, No should be cantering ahead with an emphatic lead right now. Annihilation IF all had went to plan should be beckoning by now and showing itself for the Yes side to be totally and utterly unwinnable.

Only it's not is it ? Even the poll of polls today with the Scotsman trumpeting it, and popping the champagne corks.. only needs a 7 point swing. And it's nothing the campaign team on the Yes side haven't managed before. So, no, there's definitely no grounds for any complacency whatsoever if you're after a No vote. But... there should be. Shouldn't there by now ?

I don't think things are going quite to plan... Last two referenda have had Scots voting for more independence be it an assembly or devolution. Independence is the next step ( thought I personally would totally have gone for Devo max if it had been on offer ).

The real campaign starts the minute the Commonwealth Games are over. No is nowhere near, not even close to the 65% plus where it hoped to be in the polls right now for an emphatic win. Clinging on by virtue of Alastair Darling, Gordon Brown, Jim Murphy, Anas Sawar and Danny Alexander. And we don't like them much. Not even Labour voters do.

Forget about what the UK 'want's Generali. This is a vote for Scots residents alone. And what they want. NATO doesn't figure that high on the agenda. Nor as I posted before does the currency. We're looking in, not out. There's no time to waste on any 'hate' directed outwards south of the border. There are far more important things on Scot's minds, Yes or No voters, to waste on THAT ! We've all for far more to think about and decide on than petty bigotry.

So in your view, the voters aren't concerned with any matters of substance but do dislike certain politicians and will therefore vote with their 'gut' instinct : the same instinct that thinks the Flower of Scotland celebrates everything that is best about Scotland




better apart maybe.

beecher2

Moby wrote: »

Good post. You have your finger on the pulse. I've been talking to a few in Glasgow and they all say it's wide open mainly because there is a large constituency of voters who will come out for this referendum and are more likely to vote yes because they tend to be poor and economically disadvantaged and are not being picked up by the polling companies.
Speaking peronally I'll be very down if Scotland go independent because we'll then be subjected to a permanent South East based right wing govmt in Westminster without the balance Scotland provides.

Yes, the missing million could very well change things, if they feel engaged enough in the debate to come out and vote. That's where RIC is coming into its own - next mass canvas is on Wednesday. You don't see much in the way of media reporting on this of course, other than Libby Brooks in the Guardian.

beecher2

zagubov wrote: »

I don't know if Australia's been following the commonwealth games but it should be obvious that there's no anti-English feeling there.

I can't imagine Gary Lineker would be tweeting the following if it were the case

Last day in Scotland. Must say the warmth of the people of Glasgow towards this southern softie has been overwhelmingly delightful. Thanks.

Can imagine the usual suspects reading this. 'Does not compute. Scots must hate the English, or nothing I've ever said makes sense!'

CLAPTON

beecher2 wrote: »

I can't imagine Gary Lineker would be tweeting the following if it were the case



Can imagine the usual suspects reading this. 'Does not compute. Scots must hate the English, or nothing I've ever said makes sense!'

I have travelled many times in Scotland and indeed travelled the world.


I have always meet with kindness, helpfulness and friendship.


However, I can't in all honestly conclude that there is happiness and peace everywhere.


Any one that thinks, in the 21st century, that The Flower of Scotland is a suitable de facto national anthem is incapable of understanding human values.
'Any one but the English' is understandable coming from a football drunk, but is unappealing when it clearly forms the view of huge numbers of supposedly educated and cultured people.

kabayiri

So let's agree on something : rUK will fare VERY well following a post independent Scotland.

Why ?

a) currency stability - not a formal union but UK could demand a decent price for such stability. It's obviously really important to the Yes campaigners - a price worth paying methinks. UK gets a revenue boost, Scotland gets some stability

b) cost of change - lots of change work here, all at vastly inflated consultancy rates obviously. All the usual culprits will be in for this work, many of them with sizeable operations in rUK. That would be a welcome boost to the economy.

c) Leasing out services - it would be much less risk for an independent Scotland to lease services in the short/mid term than go to great expense of setting up their own facilities for things like pension administration / passports etc. That's a win-win for both. rUK can charge a decent price and provide a reliable service.

d) Trigger for change - I think rUK has become a bit complacent in some respects. A new competitive neighbour could be just the impetus needed to try and win new business.

e) Some companies will find that relocating to rUK will help them service existing markets. That's much needed jobs too.

In negotiations we may think that Alex S and co have a good hand. However, they will need a lot of cooperation from rUK to succeed which is why I expect we will see rUK do well. Westminster would have a duty to support the interests of the remaining 92% of the populace.

Oh, and let us not forget.

No matter what - the lawyers will always win ! (and many of the big legals are down in London)

*Trebles all round* (hic)