EE/Orange/T-Mobile - Reclaim ALL price rises AND cancel contract re T&C change

RandomCurve

Let them know it is a different case and ask dose it mean that if you lose 1 case against EE then whatever EE do after that, that may be in breach you have no redress under CISAS rules?


Ask where it says in the CISAS rules that you can only have one compliant per life of a contract?


Ask how they can make a decision based on just EEs submission without having the consumer view to balance the argument.


I may find it difficult to post in the next couple of days, but if I can I will.

RandomCurve

Mikmonken wrote: »

I'm going to phone up tomorrow to get some specifics how are we meant to comment if we can't see the full objection?

Hoping RC will help formulate a response but we need to look at what could be seen as similar and evidence they're not.

We need to remember EE aren't stupid they'll have a pretty convincing case.

First case cancellation for May price increase - but not a request to back date all price rises

2nd case a request to terminate based on T&Cs

I think it's the first case that might be the weak link that we need to find the argument against?

I can't look through my notes till much later tonight but will have a look then and try and pull together a draft to send tomorrow

First case was specific to May 20104. New case is ALL Previous price rises in clauses before the change in T&Cs (so clearly not the same as the first case as it is a DIFFERENT price variation clause).
And obviously the second case is also about the change in T&Cs which the first case is not.


EE are rattled because they know that they have "given evidence against themselves" previously by admitting that the old T&Cs were not clear as to the rate of inflation to be applied, and signed that as a true statement - so CISAS will find it VERY difficult to rule in EEs favour when that is compared to the UTCCR fairness rules.
As regards the change in T&Cs they know they have lost 97% of cases and therefore also know that if we can get CISAS to accept the "Professional Diligence" and "Material distortion" arguments (and I think they are very compelling) then they could lose ALL customers, so the more difficult they make it by forcing people down the SCC route then safer they feel they are -they under estimate our resolve I think!


Aside form the loss of customers - if they lose just a few cases then in their accounts they will need to make a provision for future refunds - and if they are trying to float the company that will not look good -it will wipe millions off of the flotation price! If we can get a case won before end December I will write to the EE auditors (copying in the FT) explaining what is happening!!

RandomCurve

Just sent to MSE:


Please check the latest on the forum. CISAS accepted cases against EE, but before the cases were resolved EE have contacted CISAS (with no communication to the consumer) to try and persuade CISAS to reconsider and to reject the cases. This is all against the rules and shows that CISAS is not as independent as we are lead to believe
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/66459936#Comment_66459936


Now I know just how rattled EE are I'm convinced that EVERY EE/Orange/T-Mobile customer can cancel their contract penalty free - this could be a major story. If MSE cannot resource this can you pass this on to an investigative journalist who can - I will be happy to work with them.


Regards

RandomCurve

Regarding the Formal Compliant to Ofcom on the T&Cs. Graham Howell has emailed me to say that I will receive a response by 22nd September!

Mikmonken

RandomCurve wrote: »

Regarding the Formal Compliant to Ofcom on the T&Cs. Graham Howell has emailed me to say that I will receive a response by 22nd September!

He's brought mine forward 5 days because he didn't read my email properly chortle chortle!

Maccadinho25

Copied Lynn Parker and Graham Howell in to my response basically asking the questions you have stated RC - lets see what they say!

RandomCurve

Just a thought - and not sure when would be the right time to ask CISAS and Ofcom this but - how can we be sure that in the course of EE/CISAS meetings EE have not gained an unfair advantage by understanding how CISAS view variouse aspects of the case and so can word their defence accordingly?

Mikmonken

RC here is what I have sent to CISAS, i've bit the bullet. - for info though I have had confirmation from CISAS that EE have not requested an extension... and i think this email should prompt immediate reinstating of the current cases.

down to you guys if you want to send it, the red text is what you need to change, the rest is just banging on about the rules.

I think it is balanced and logical and from a concerning angle rather than in anger.

Sent to -
info@cisas.org.uk
cc: Lynn.Parker@Ofcom.org.uk
cc: info@fightmobileincreases.com

subject header - Clarification around CISAS process - Re: Case Ref: xxxxx xxxxx v EE Ltd t/as EE

Dear Michelle

Firstly thank you for your response confirming that EE have not requested an extension, and that CISAS have not granted an extension either, however in reviewing CISAS rules and guidance I have concerns now around the impartiality of the CISAS process which I feel needs urgently address giving the stages within the cases. You will note that some of these queries were raised over 5 days ago. I believe clarity around the following points will help reassure the customer of the impartiality of the process as well as providing transparency.

Having accepted a case CISAS have rules and procedures in place to allow for an impartial process, in order to remain impartial these rules and procedures need to run in their entirety and in sequence. In order for cases previously excepted by CISAS, but currently stalled, to remain impartial, there is a need for these cases to continue based on information and responses submitted within the initial timeframe and run their due course. Following the procedures set out in rule 4. This will culminate if necessary in an adjudicator exercising rule 5.c and 5d if necessary to decide whether the case falls within the rules of CISAS. - there appears to be no provision within the CISAS rules following the acceptance of a case (rule 4.1a) to be rejected without following the procedures within Section 4 - The adjudication procedure

my clarifications are as follows:
1 - Clarification on where within the CISAS rules it is published that a Company are allowed to object to cases already accepted by CISAS without submitting a response.

2 - Copies of any policies and procedures regarding a companies ability to object to a claim.

3 - Clarification as to what constitutes "exceptional circumstances” (rule 4.1c) around the awarding of an extension to a company when compiling a response.

4 - Confirmation that in line with CISAS rule 4.1c company must submit a "response" within 10 days of receipt of the claim,

a) further responses can be sent within the 10 day time frame.

Examples of possible response but not an extensive list

Nothing submitted
Defence to claim submitted
Objection -> Defence to claim submitted
Objection -> request for an extension (if no extension granted the Objection would be deemed the response)
Objection -> request for an extension -> defence to claim (submitted in extension period.
b) Rule 4.3 All these responses will then be forwarded to the customer for comment prior to being allocated to an adjudicator for decision.
c) What, if any, responses from a company CISAS does not have to forward to the customers and where this list is document
5 - Clarification as to why a company has responded to an accepted case in the form of an objection (within a 10 day period) and CISAS have not followed process by informing the customer on receipt of the response (Rule 4.3a) allowing the customer to comment within 5 working days (Rule 4.3c) before an adjudicator reviews and makes a decision on the case (Rule 4.4b and 4.5)

6 - Clarification as to why CISAS have chosen to circumvent the following rules (and procedure) having accepted a claim. rule 4.3a, rule 4.3c, rule 4.5 and not allowed the case to run its natural cause within the defined timescale and allow Rule 5d (Powers of the adjudicator) Determine whether or not the dispute falls within the scope of the Scheme, to run its course?

7 - In light of the above and failure to follow procedure how CISAS plan to ensure impartiality of cases which have stalled and potential will have timescale reset which will have allowed a company significantly more time to compile a response than the defined “impartial” process timescales allow, and in effect a company has already submitted a response in the form of an objection. (in my case EE have already had an additional 5 days without requesting an extension)

I appreciate the above clarifications are detailed requests, however many relate to current procedure and rules which if present should be easily available, I note CISAS are currently engaged with OFCOM (hence OFCOM being CC’d) I believe that OFCOM have been engaged to early in the process and in effect CISAS have compromised their process and impartiality having accepted a case and then at the request of a company skipping from Rule 4.1 to Rule 4.5 (at which point an adjudicator may choose to instigate Rule 5.c) having not engaged or communicated with the customer at appropriate stages within the process.

regards

MrJester

Hi, so I came across this, and please please forgive me ignorance but could someone explain if this would enable me to cancel my contract with EE?

I have had my contract since October 2013 ish, will check on that. A 48 month deal.
I have a phone that is part of my deal. In this case would I make note that I would either return the phone, or pay the remainder of the handset cost to keep it?
Am I still able to do this even now? Anyones assistance here, would be amazing.
And again, I apologise for not understanding fully yet.

Mikmonken

JoeJester wrote: »

Hi, so I came across this, and please please forgive me ignorance but could someone explain if this would enable me to cancel my contract with EE?

I have had my contract since October 2013 ish, will check on that. A 48 month deal.
I have a phone that is part of my deal. In this case would I make note that I would either return the phone, or pay the remainder of the handset cost to keep it?
Am I still able to do this even now? Anyones assistance here, would be amazing.
And again, I apologise for not understanding fully yet.

If you follow the process on page 1 of this forum and your successful in cancelling, you will keep your phone (it may be unlocked depending on the adjudicators outcome) and it will cost you nothing. you've got nothing to lose and can save a fare chunk of cash.

couple of questions - have you tried to cancel previously either for T&C's or on the basis of the price rise?

If you haven't you will possibly be in a better position than most of us, especially if you haven't been through the CISAS in the past.

As mentioned go to page one and send the template email to EE exec office, and keep going until they refer you to CISAS.

you may as well do that straight away.

if you've had a case with CISAS keep an eye on this thread to see what the outcome is in terms of OFCOM stepping in.

If you haven't had a case with CISAS before then once EE have referred you to CISAS follow the rest of the process on the first page.

but to answer your question you won't have to pay a penny to keep your phone if your claim is successful.