Did the 999 responder act correctly? Very sensitive question

FBaby

topdaddy wrote: »

Still breaking the first rule of firsf aid: dont put your self at risk.

And she didn't and that is fine, she won't be prosecuted for it, but it doesn't take away the fact that whereas OP's mum had the choice not to attempt to move him, the operator had a job to try to encourage her to get him at of the car.

In the end, we don't know what the conversation was exactly or how he said it. He might have been providing suggestion about how to move the body and OP's mum took it as persistence of her to do it. She also had the choice to go to her husband and get him to do it whilst she waited for the emergency to come.

I don't think OP's mum did anything wrong under the circumstances, but I also don't think the operator was in the wrong trying to get her to move the body out of the car.

gingin_2

Stephb1986 wrote: »

This might be a strange one but the OP didn't say the car was still running we're just assuming he may have gassed himself. The other possibility is that he could of had a heart attack at the wheel? It's not unheard of. It's a shame either way.

I'm an emergency first aider and wouldn't be too sure on attempting to give mouth to mouth to a deceased person if I was 99% sure they were no longer with us. As the OP said rigor mortis had set in so that's pretty certain that the person was deceased surely?

OP I think your parents did well to even approach the car I'm not sure if I seen someone in their car to approach them incase something was wrong. I hope they are both okay and don't have to deal with something so awful again.

Steph x

No, there was equipment outside the car to make it obvious that the guy had gassed himself. There were also suicide notes left on the dashboard.

I didn't want to go into too much detail but I don't want people taking it off on a different tangent (not that you are) because I haven't explained the facts.

Like I say, this is not my Mum making an issue of this, it's me. I completely respect her decision to not go ahead knowing the sort of decent person she is. I hate the thought of my mum being pressured, whilst on her own, to give CPR to a dead gentleman whose body is going through the first stages of decomposition.

Opinions on here have made me see it from a different perspective which is genuinely very helpful.

CRANKY40

I'm 5 ft 1 and I have trouble lifting my 9 year old son who weighs 5 stone. Would there not be a risk that if you were pulling someone out of a car they could land on their head thereby finishing off any chance however small of saving them anyway? If I had been able to manage to pull the person out there would be no way I'd be able to control their landing.....

I have climbed into a badly crashed car to hold the hand of an accident victim who was stuck before now, so I'm no coward, but when it comes to the physically impossible there has to be a line drawn.

redruby

A neighbour of ours tragically hung himself last year, my OH along with neighbours son was first on the scene, OH phoned 999 and was told to cut the body down in case he was still breathing, neighbour was a massive bloke but OH managed to cut him down but he obviously fell to the ground, it was very distressing for his son and my OH, neighbour was very obviously dead but I suppose the person on the end of the phone could not tell this a horrible situation for all involved x

System

I think 999 calls are all recorded. If there's any doubt as to how the call was handled you can ask for it to be investigated. If it turns out that procedures weren't followed or something should have been done better or differently they will then have the opportunity to give that feedback to the call-handler involved.

It isn't about making a fuss or getting someone into trouble, it's just that if no comment is registered it may go unnoticed which may put other people at risk in the future.

dandy-candy

Your poor mum. Finding a body would be bad enough, but to be left alone with it and have someone having a go at you trying to make you touch it - stuff of nightmares! I hope your mum isn't too upset. I would want to complain if it had been me or my mum, but as it was your mum who was in that position and she doesn't want to complain, I think you will have to respect her wishes.

Tiddlywinks

CRANKY40 wrote: »

I'm 5 ft 1 and I have trouble lifting my 9 year old son who weighs 5 stone. Would there not be a risk that if you were pulling someone out of a car they could land on their head thereby finishing off any chance however small of saving them anyway? If I had been able to manage to pull the person out there would be no way I'd be able to control their landing.....
.

Again, the call handler would have no way of knowing if you were a 6 foot, 22 year old weight lifter or a 5 foot, 65 year old with severe arthritis... The request will be the same... Do all you can to preserve life.

As to the victim landing on his head... He wasn't breathing, what would possibly make that situation worse for him? There was no paramedic available, no other means of reviving him... really, given a choice of being left 'dead' or taking a chance of sustaining a head injury in order to be revived... I know which I'd choose!

Bottom line, the call handler is unsighted and will make all suggestions based on agreed process - s/he will issue requests based on the small chance that the casualty could be revived. Why is everyone so keen to apportion blame?

Mojisola

gingin wrote: »

My mother was told to check for a pulse and there was definitely no pulse. She thought that was it. She was then told to feel him again to see if he was warm. She said there was a small amount of warmth on part of his skin but that was only because the sun had been beating down on him and that he was obviously in rigor mortis.

Again, my mother refused, said she had been a nurse herself ( I am not sure if she had mentioned this before), she was in no doubt that he was dead and that she was 67 years old and it just wasn't possible or necessary until the services arrived.

The pressure continued for my mother to pull the man out of the car. The dispatcher wouldn't let up with my mother who was becoming more distressed herself who ended up having to leave the phone there and go and join my father.

Tiddlywinks wrote: »

Again, the call handler would have no way of knowing if you were a 6 foot, 22 year old weight lifter or a 5 foot, 65 year old with severe arthritis... The request will be the same... Do all you can to preserve life.

Given the information that rigor mortis had set in and that the caller was a 67 year old lady who was getting very distressed, it could have been handled more sensitively.

Georgiegirl256

Tiddlywinks wrote: »

Again, the call handler would have no way of knowing if you were a 6 foot, 22 year old weight lifter or a 5 foot, 65 year old with severe arthritis... The request will be the same... Do all you can to preserve life.

They could have asked "are you able to manage to move the gentleman?"

As to the victim landing on his head... He wasn't breathing, what would possibly make that situation worse for him? There was no paramedic available, no other means of reviving him... really, given a choice of being left 'dead' or taking a chance of sustaining a head injury in order to be revived... I know which I'd choose!

If he was still alive, then landing on his head could have possibly caused spinal injuries or paralysis, so sometimes the best thing to do is NOT to move them. I can see why in this instance the Operator was telling her to move him, but if she wasn't able to, then it should have been left at that.

Bottom line, the call handler is unsighted and will make all suggestions based on agreed process - s/he will issue requests based on the small chance that the casualty could be revived. Why is everyone so keen to apportion blame?

No one is apportioning blame, but as well as following a script, common sense and the ability to move on to the next page should also be applied too.

I'm glad the Operator that I got when I called for my Mam applied common sense and didn't insist on me being there with her so I could actually answer if she was clammy or if she had pains here and there. It could have delayed the ambulance for a further 5-10 minutes while I arrived. As it was, the Paramedic car got there within minutes and was already there before I was.

Person_one

gingin wrote: »

No, there was equipment outside the car to make it obvious that the guy had gassed himself. There were also suicide notes left on the dashboard.

I didn't want to go into too much detail but I don't want people taking it off on a different tangent (not that you are) because I haven't explained the facts.

Like I say, this is not my Mum making an issue of this, it's me. I completely respect her decision to not go ahead knowing the sort of decent person she is. I hate the thought of my mum being pressured, whilst on her own, to give CPR to a dead gentleman whose body is going through the first stages of decomposition.

Opinions on here have made me see it from a different perspective which is genuinely very helpful.

FWIW, I think your mum was right, but I also think the 999 handler was also right. They were both right based on the huge difference in their perspectives and proximity to the situation.

Your mum knows a dead person when she sees one, of that I'm sure, there's really no mistaking the difference after a certain amount of time has passed, and she knows her own physical limitations too. She made the correct judgment in not attempting to move or resuscitate the dead man.

However, as others have said the 999 handler can't just trust the word of a random person on the phone and needs to do what they can to try and give the found person the best chance of surviving. Unfortunately, this person had no chance, but its not difficult to imagine that someone less experienced could find someone very much alive and think them dead if they were cold, unresponsive, barely or not breathing and they couldn't find a pulse (I take pulses pretty much every day and there are still times when I struggle and it takes a while.)

So, everybody did the best they could in their own situation, it was just a bad situation all round and sadly, there was no way it could have a good outcome.

Hope your mum and dad are feeling ok now, what a shock.