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Did the 999 responder act correctly? Very sensitive question
gingin_2
Posts: 2,992 Forumite
Firstly apologies if this upsets anyone, it's reasonably graphic and I'm not sure if anyone who has been touched by suicide should read ahead.
I'm relaying this second hand, so my terminology might not be correct but it's as best as I can describe.
My parents found a body in a very remote area, it was in a wooded area off a private country lane. My parents are salt of the earth people, people who do everything by the book, in no way sensationalist. I would never doubt that they wouldn't do the right thing in this sort of circumstance.
The gentleman was in his car, after knocking on his window and getting no response they opened the car door to find him dead.
They called 999 and both police and ambulance were on their way out. Because of the location my father had to go out to flag down the ambulance on the main road because there was no way that they were going to find their location otherwise. My mother was told to stay with the gentleman and stay on the phone.
My mother was told to check for a pulse and there was definitely no pulse. She thought that was it. She was then told to feel him again to see if he was warm. She said there was a small amount of warmth on part of his skin but that was only because the sun had been beating down on him and that he was obviously in rigor mortis. She was then told to pull him, herself, out of the car. My mother refused to do so saying he was definitely dead and she wasn't going to do it. The dispatcher insisted again that my mother, by herself, pull the gentleman out of the car. Again, my mother refused, said she had been a nurse herself ( I am not sure if she had mentioned this before), she was in no doubt that he was dead and that she was 67 years old and it just wasn't possible or necessary until the services arrived. The pressure continued for my mother to pull the man out of the car. The dispatcher wouldn't let up with my mother who was becoming more distressed herself who ended up having to leave the phone there and go and join my father.
My mother is upset. She said she doesn't want to make a fuss and that they sounded young (?). I am adamant that this should at least be reported so the call can be reviewed to see if it was dealt with correctly. I have no knowledge of this but was wondering if anyone knew if this was standard procedure, that this is what dispatchers are trained to tell people to do in this sort of circumstance? My mother was so upset with the pressure she was put under and I am in defensive mode on her behalf. If this is standard procedure then it's upsetting but we can leave it be. To me, the pressure she was put under an the forceful manner in which she was spoken to sounds wrong to me and I would want this person to go through some retraining if so.
They say the police and the ambulance staff were fantastic.
I'm relaying this second hand, so my terminology might not be correct but it's as best as I can describe.
My parents found a body in a very remote area, it was in a wooded area off a private country lane. My parents are salt of the earth people, people who do everything by the book, in no way sensationalist. I would never doubt that they wouldn't do the right thing in this sort of circumstance.
The gentleman was in his car, after knocking on his window and getting no response they opened the car door to find him dead.
They called 999 and both police and ambulance were on their way out. Because of the location my father had to go out to flag down the ambulance on the main road because there was no way that they were going to find their location otherwise. My mother was told to stay with the gentleman and stay on the phone.
My mother was told to check for a pulse and there was definitely no pulse. She thought that was it. She was then told to feel him again to see if he was warm. She said there was a small amount of warmth on part of his skin but that was only because the sun had been beating down on him and that he was obviously in rigor mortis. She was then told to pull him, herself, out of the car. My mother refused to do so saying he was definitely dead and she wasn't going to do it. The dispatcher insisted again that my mother, by herself, pull the gentleman out of the car. Again, my mother refused, said she had been a nurse herself ( I am not sure if she had mentioned this before), she was in no doubt that he was dead and that she was 67 years old and it just wasn't possible or necessary until the services arrived. The pressure continued for my mother to pull the man out of the car. The dispatcher wouldn't let up with my mother who was becoming more distressed herself who ended up having to leave the phone there and go and join my father.
My mother is upset. She said she doesn't want to make a fuss and that they sounded young (?). I am adamant that this should at least be reported so the call can be reviewed to see if it was dealt with correctly. I have no knowledge of this but was wondering if anyone knew if this was standard procedure, that this is what dispatchers are trained to tell people to do in this sort of circumstance? My mother was so upset with the pressure she was put under and I am in defensive mode on her behalf. If this is standard procedure then it's upsetting but we can leave it be. To me, the pressure she was put under an the forceful manner in which she was spoken to sounds wrong to me and I would want this person to go through some retraining if so.
They say the police and the ambulance staff were fantastic.
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Comments
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I have no knowledge to have a well founded opinion, but it does sound like an incredibly large thing to ask of a person who has come across such a distressing scene. Perhaps the despatchers are meant to be forceful in case there is a chance of preserving life, I do not know.
I hope the deceased gentleman has found peace, and I am so sorry your parents found him and have had such an ordeal made that bit more distressing. Thoughts are with you and your family, as well as that of the gentleman and all else dealing with this situation.
Hopefully someone can come along and offer you some advice.0 -
I have heard similar stories from other people. A friend was told to continuing giving CPR to someone she was sure was dead. A colleague was yelled at to continue CPR when she said she was getting too tired. I think they have to assume the person could be wrong. It's probably better if some people get shouted at rather than someone dying because first aid is withdrawn. Re: your mum being a nurse. A lot of people exaggerate (I know I work with the public!) are aren't great at their jobs. They probably cannot just take someone's word for it.0
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I have heard similar stories from other people. A friend was told to continuing giving CPR to someone she was sure was dead. A colleague was yelled at to continue CPR when she said she was getting too tired. I think they have to assume the person could be wrong. It's probably better if some people get shouted at rather than someone dying because first aid is withdrawn. Re: your mum being a nurse. A lot of people exaggerate (I know I work with the public!) are aren't great at their jobs. They probably cannot just take someone's word for it.
Cpr training teaches you to keep going until help arrives. I suspect this is a case of taking judgment away from joe public.0 -
Even if I thought I could physically manage it, I'd not want to be trying to drag strange dead men out of their car .... you'd be having the hug them and stuff.... I don't do that to living people!
In the woods ... hugging dead bodies.... no thanks.
Outrageous - explaining why/purpose might have helped... 2-3 cajolings might have convinced me, if I thought he might be saved..... but I'm a right wuss.
I'd do it all if I thought it'd save a life .... but he was beyond that. Mind you, I'd have legged it to the road to wait for the services, leaving the other person on the phone with the body.0 -
Totally agree with Hermia.
Also dispatchers have scripts based on previous answers which means they do ask inappropraite questions. I had to call 999 a couple weeks back after being badly injuring my leg (dislocating my knee ) Even though I had stated there was no blood (bone hadn't perforated the skin ) the despatcher kept asking me how much blood I was loosing from the wound.
Its like the nhs online symptom checker which i find useless.Spelling courtesy of the whims of auto correct...
Pet Peeves.... queues, vain people and hypocrites ..not necessarily in that order.0 -
Cpr training teaches you to keep going until help arrives. I suspect this is a case of taking judgment away from joe public.
Yes, I know, I have been a first aider. My colleague had been doing it for 25 minutes though (she was on her own and the ambulance was held up) and was exhausted. I agree that you should keep going on though just in case.0 -
PasturesNew wrote: »Even if I thought I could physically manage it, I'd not want to be trying to drag strange dead men out of their car .... you'd be having the hug them and stuff.... I don't do that to living people!
In the woods ... hugging dead bodies.... no thanks.
Outrageous - explaining why/purpose might have helped... 2-3 cajolings might have convinced me, if I thought he might be saved..... but I'm a right wuss.
I'd do it all if I thought it'd save a life .... but he was beyond that. Mind you, I'd have legged it to the road to wait for the services, leaving the other person on the phone with the body.
Yes, congrats to your mum because I really don't know how I'd have reacted in that situation, I certainly wouldn't have surrounded myself in an obviously dead body. I'd find it very hard to take a pulse but of course I'd do so if needed.0 -
A little less dramatic, but my 95 year old Father was found by his carer on her evening visit to be unresponsive to speech. When I got there, I called an ambulance via 999. The ambulance took an hour to get to his home and during the wait, the ambulance controller insisted that I stay on the line with her and every few minutes she would say "is he still conscious?" I explained to her that I had 30 years of nursing experience, but to her, this was of no interest. I needed to get stuff ready for him going into hospital and passed the phone to my brother. Again, he was asked every so often if Dad was still breathing etc. Suddenly the operator said to my brother that she had to put the phone down now, to answer another call!!! What a complete and utter waste of an ambulance controller's time and mine and my brothers time.0
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They have a script that they read off, answering each question before it moves on to the next page. Rightly or wrongly this is how it is. Personally I feel it should be a combination of that with a bit of common sense applied too.
The other week my Mam had chest pains. She's had two previous heart attacks and she'd took her GTN spray which had no effect. My Dad called me as he's very hard of hearing, and can't hear properly on the phone, so I phoned the ambulance. The lady on the phone was asking me certain questions which I couldn't answer for sure as I wasn't there with my Mam (phoned in the car on the way to their house), so I kept on having to answer that I didn't know as I wasn't there. She understood this but said she had to ask these questions.
The Paramedic in the back of the ambulance on the way to the hospital told us they have to ask these questions to rate the calls in order of urgency. I understood this but I also think a good dose of common sense needs to be applied too, which I felt the lady I spoke to applied. She asked the questions as they popped up, but understood I wasn't actually there and so basically skipped through them but understood how urgent it was and a paramedic car was there within minutes.
I feel the operator was fairly inappropriate in your Mum's case, but like you say, they sounded pretty young, and they'll have just been following the script to the letter, taking it word for word. I think it was unfair to put your poor Mum under that pressure and maybe the system does need to be re-evaluated perhaps.
ETA: My Mam was ok btw and it wasn't another heart attack thank goodness.
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I'm guessing the 999 operators work on scripts and tick box categories. If this > do this.
I called 999 a few months ago after finding a drunk unconscious in the park. He was unresponsive and had an injury to his head with a small amount of blood that was evidently a result of a scratched or scraped scab.
It fell into 'head injury' and as a result, they sent an air ambulance, standard ambulance and a motorbike medic, likely at a massive cost.
I did think an air ambulance and standard ambulance, along with a motorbike medic was a little OTT for a drunk with a scraped scab. Then again, I'm not to judge, as I'm not an expert and have no knowledge of such things, so just did as I was told. 0
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