Married but living separately?

JIL

HMRC is not that straightforward. The op and her partner have got two households to consider and further reading into the HMRC shows there is more to this than the one statement.



http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ccmmanual/CCM15035.htm

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ccmmanual/CCM15080.htm

madison-nyc

There are even cases where someone can claim as a single whilst living in the same house as the husband, when the marriage has broken down but neither party can afford to move out of the marital home.


These things are never black and white, if it were as clear as married or not then there would be millions of single people who would be committing fraud. I don't know anyone who would go for the legally separated option over divorce and unless you have grounds for divorce you need to be living separately for 2 years before being eligible for divorce, therefore, there are many single people claiming who are in fact still married. whether attempting to reconcile or not.

tinkerbell28

JIL wrote: »

HMRC is not that straightforward. The op and her partner have got two households to consider and further reading into the HMRC shows there is more to this than the one statement.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ccmmanual/CCM15035.htm

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ccmmanual/CCM15080.htm

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ccmmanual/CCM15080.htm

Have you actually read the links you've just posted or the thread?

The second two don't refer to married couples at all.

The first one does. Which is quite clear.

From the first link.

Section 3(5) defines a married couple as a man and woman who are married to each other and are neither

separated under a Court order nor
separated in circumstances where the separation is likely to be permanent.
From the date on which a couple marry they will be treated as a married couple for tax credit purposes even if they do not begin living in the same household. They might also have been living as an unmarried couple for tax credit purposes prior to this date.

Where the customer says they are separated from their husband or wife you might find it helpful to consider the criteria at CCM15040 but remember the starting point is different. They are to be treated as a married couple unless the evidence shows they are separated and it is likely to be permanent.


That last bit is especially critical. Which is why in the case above holidays and things were used against them.

If you read the thread, ops separation isn't permanent. They're back together and have been actively working towards a reconciliation and have decided "to make a go of it". So she will never be able to argue she thinks it's a permanent separation.

tinkerbell28

madison-nyc wrote: »

There are even cases where someone can claim as a single whilst living in the same house as the husband, when the marriage has broken down but neither party can afford to move out of the marital home.

Yep. Like as stated above in the links. When they can't afford to move out and have divorced or commenced legal separation proceedings.

You haven't and you've actively taken marriage counselling, reconciled and taken family holidays and such like.

Whatever makes you feel better though op. The thing is of you really want to make a go of it. Do it above board. You may find being prosecuted for fraud could ruin everything.

So whatever you do, do it with a clear mind.

madison-nyc

What in your opinion are steps to make separation legal? as I can tell you that in HMRC's view it has nothing to do with court or solicitors. It is the separating of finances, sleeping in separate bedrooms etc.


You keep referring back to holidays, we have taken one weekend away with the children which was our make or break time as a family, I know many separated couples who still holiday as a family for the sake of the children.


We are still at marriage guidance/therapy, many people indeed continue with therapy through divorce proceedings as a means of mediation. We have issues to work though before I commit to him moving back in to the family home, I will not put him, the children or myself through another separation.

tinkerbell28

madison-nyc wrote: »

What in your opinion are steps to make separation legal? as I can tell you that in HMRC's view it has nothing to do with court or solicitors. It is the separating of finances, sleeping in separate bedrooms etc. No it is not, that's a myth read this quote again, you're married. It's not a situation where they will use guidelines to ascertain a partnership.


You keep referring back to holidays, we have taken one weekend away with the children which was our make or break time as a family, I know many separated couples who still holiday as a family for the sake of the children.


We are still at marriage guidance/therapy, many people indeed continue with therapy through divorce proceedings as a means of mediation. We have issues to work though before I commit to him moving back in to the family home, I will not put him, the children or myself through another separation.

Section 3(5) defines a married couple as a man and woman who are married to each other and are neither

separated under a Court order nor
separated in circumstancess where the separation is likely to be permanent.
From the date on which a couple marry they will be treated as a married couple for tax credit purposes even if they do not begin living in the same household. They might also have been living as an unmarried couple for tax credit purposes prior to this date.

Where the customer says they are separated from their husband or wife you might find it helpful to consider the criteria at CCM15040 but remember the starting point is different. They are to be treated as a married couple unless the evidence shows Section 3(5) defines a married couple as a man and woman who are married to each other and are neither

separated under a Court order nor
separated in circumstances where the separation is likely to be permanent.
From the date on which a couple marry they will be treated as a married couple for tax credit purposes even if they do not begin living in the same household. They might also have been living as an unmarried couple for tax credit purposes prior to this date.

Where the customer says they are separated from their husband or wife you might find it helpful to consider the criteria at CCM15040 but remember the starting point is different. They are to be treated as a married couple unless the evidence shows they are separated and it is likely to be permanent.




Neither applies to you. Tax credits clearly state if you're married you claim as a couple. UNLESS you've legally separated, or have seperated with a view to it being permanent, you aren't separated with it being permanent. You're back together as a married couple, just living apart. Exactly like those people in the article.

I genuinely don't know what else to say to you.

Many, many, many people are married and live apart and make a great marriage out of it. However sometimes people do find the cost can be too much. We've looked at this, contracting salary vs my husband having a flat in the city if we go that route. Two household is a lot to run.

So if you've managed to reconcile your family and marriage good luck to you. However if your decision to live apart it being supported by telling tax credits you're permanently separated. You're going to come unstuck. So you will have to factor in costs to your decision.

JIL

tinkerbell28 wrote: »

Have you actually read the links you've just posted or the thread?

The second two don't refer to married couples at all.

I have read the links and all the other guidance as well. The first link then links through to the further pages.

People and families come in all shapes and sizes. There will never be a "one statement fits all"
The big hole in this is a permanent separation, but how can all people know a separation will be permanent?

If a couple are separated and maintaining two separate households then more evidence will need to be taken into account and from this a balance of probabilities will say if the couple are a couple for HMRC purposes.

Im not saying the op or anyone else, including myself, is right or wrong, just that its not a straight yes or no answer.

tinkerbell28

JIL wrote: »

I have read the links and all the other guidance as well. The first link then links through to the further pages.

People and families come in all shapes and sizes. There will never be a "one statement fits all"
The big hole in this is a permanent separation, but how can all people know a separation will be permanent?

If a couple are separated and maintaining two separate households then more evidence will need to be taken into account and from this a balance of probabilities will say if the couple are a couple for HMRC purposes.

Im not saying the op or anyone else, including myself, is right or wrong, just that its not a straight yes or no answer.

Those links are referring to couples who aren't married. Or couples who have been and have to live together in the event of divorce.

Unfortunately for op the guidance on married couples is VERY clear. Whether people like it or not. The fact op admits herself they're very much together and it's justified because they've got two households. Would see her in a whole heap of do o, before they even start digging.

madison-nyc

What in your opinion are steps to make separation legal? as I can tell you that in HMRC's view it has nothing to do with court or solicitors. It is the separating of finances, sleeping in separate bedrooms etc. No it is not, that's a myth read this quote again, you're married. It's not a situation where they will use guidelines to ascertain a partnership.




No, it is not a myth. I know an acquaintance who is in the very position I said, living in the same house as her husband, sleeping in separate bedrooms and separated finances. No legal or divorce proceedings commenced. She is eligible for tax credits as a single claimant, that is by their rules not your interpretation of them.

tinkerbell28

madison-nyc wrote: »

What in your opinion are steps to make separation legal? as I can tell you that in HMRC's view it has nothing to do with court or solicitors. It is the separating of finances, sleeping in separate bedrooms etc. No it is not, that's a myth read this quote again, you're married. It's not a situation where they will use guidelines to ascertain a partnership.




No, it is not a myth. I know an acquaintance who is in the very position I said, living in the same house as her husband, sleeping in separate bedrooms and separated finances. No legal or divorce proceedings commenced. She is eligible for tax credits as a single claimant, that is by their rules not your interpretation of them.

The rules are clear, I understand why you don't want to take them in, as it means you're committing benefit fraud.

Are they separated, have they actually broken up? That's where the latter two links come in. For guidance on a decision about people being a couple. You may find without legal separation. Come renewal, they'll have compliance down breathing down their necks.

But you aren't separated are you op? That's the key. You ARE back together. So under tax credit legislation you're a couple.

Like that couple in the op. So like I say good luck.