HMRC cheque "stolen" by whom?

Mikeyorks

jem16 wrote: »

So really as it hasn't reached her account, they need to rectify the situation.

That is the case. They have both provided the cheque and the disposal instructions to your Bank - so are the only ones who can practically progress chase.

Picking up an earlier point. The last time I saw one of these - the disposal instructions were quite separate. But that was many years ago and it is possible they're now printed with the cheque as a tear off. In much the same way as the millions of P800 refunds that are issued annually.

jem16

Mikeyorks wrote: »

That is the case. They have both provided the cheque and the disposal instructions to your Bank - so are the only ones who can practically progress chase.

I definitely feel it's up to HMRC to do the checking.

What I was wondering, though, if the cheque never actually reached the bank for whatever reason, are HMRC still liable? Or can they, after they investigate what happened, still turn round and say it's not our problem as we sent the cheque correctly as jimmo suggests?

Picking up an earlier point. The last time I saw one of these - the disposal instructions were quite separate. But that was many years ago and it is possible they're now printed with the cheque as a tear off. In much the same way as the millions of P800 refunds that are issued annually.

The only one I've seen is the original cheque sent to my daughter-in-law in her maiden name. However that seems to be different from the cheque that was sent to the bank if I am following you correctly?

HMRC now have the letter that was sent on Monday - finally signed for today. We decided to go with Recorded delivery as we wanted an official record of when it was received as opposed to just a certificate of posting. We now await developments.

Mikeyorks

jem16 wrote: »

What I was wondering, though, if the cheque never actually reached the bank for whatever reason, are HMRC still liable? Or can they, after they investigate what happened, still turn round and say it's not our problem as we sent the cheque correctly as jimmo suggests?

It's a bit academic as they're unlikely to do that. As I said in my original note they will run with the problem if it's proven it didn't hit the target account. And that includes whether the Bank are at fault or if the cheque was intercepted in the mail stream (readily inferred - if a different Bank processed it). I had a number of dealings with HMRC Finance over the years, to do with cheque fraud, and they take any attempts to convert their repayments fairly seriously.

HMRC are well aware that bulk issue cheques are a target for interception. But - since the Cheques Act 1992 (rushed through after a spate of interceptions, mainly of high value cheques inbound to HMRC via Mount Pleasant sorting office) - they are fairly few in number as most attempts at fraudulent conversion are now pretty amateurish. You can't third party cheques anymore / opening new accounts just to launder a single cheque is hard work and needs a lot of fraudulent documentation / and even cheque converters do better background checks on these as they tend to be higher value than average.

But it's still a daft way for HMRC to issue refunds!

However that seems to be different from the cheque that was sent to the bank if I am following you correctly?

Shouldn't be? Just a different type of cover with it to give disposal instructions to the Bank. But essentially the same cheque just (hopefully) with the varied payee. Trust there's no chance the Bank rejected it because the account name / payee name vary and tried to send it back to the address on the envelope reverse! But as HMRC maintain it's been 'paid' then hopefully it's sitting in suspense somewhere.

jem16

Mikeyorks wrote: »

It's a bit academic as they're unlikely to do that. As I said in my original note they will run with the problem if it's proven it didn't hit the target account. And that includes whether the Bank are at fault or if the cheque was intercepted in the mail stream (readily inferred - if a different Bank processed it). I had a number of dealings with HMRC Finance over the years, to do with cheque fraud, and they take any attempts to convert their repayments fairly seriously.

Thanks. That sounds rather more hopeful.

HMRC are well aware that bulk issue cheques are a target for interception. But - since the Cheques Act 1992 (rushed through after a spate of interceptions, mainly of high value cheques inbound to HMRC via Mount Pleasant sorting office) - they are fairly few in number as most attempts at fraudulent conversion are now pretty amateurish. You can't third party cheques anymore / opening new accounts just to launder a single cheque is hard work and needs a lot of fraudulent documentation / and even cheque converters do better background checks on these as they tend to be higher value than average.

But it's still a daft way for HMRC to issue refunds!

Totally agree. Time they moved away from cheques.

Trust there's no chance the Bank rejected it because the account name / payee name vary and tried to send it back to the address on the envelope reverse!

Well there shouldn't be unless HMRC have issued it wrongly again.

But as HMRC maintain it's been 'paid' then hopefully it's sitting in suspense somewhere.

Hopefully it is and hopefully HMRC will take notice of the fact that it's taken almost 5 months and the refund has still not been paid. Secure messaging by email would help in a case like this but of course HMRC don't seem to do that either.

Thanks for your help Mike. Sounds a bit more positive in that you've actually dealt with similar situations.

jem16

Small update as promised;

HMRC finally got around to replying to the letter of the 16th December which they received on the 20th December. Addressed to my daughter-in-law care of me at my address.

They confirm that the payable order was sent directly to the bank and that the sort code and account number were identical to the information we included in the letter. They say that the payable order was presented by the bank on 5th October. (Hopefully they mean our bank which would at least mean that it got there successfully but who knows!)

Matter has now been referred to a specialist team within HMRC who have authority to contact the bank directly - they have been asked to make urgent enquiries so that the matter can be resolved. Customer Adviser will write again once he has received their reply.

Despite asking for copies of the cheque, they have not enclosed this.

However at least we now have a reply and they are investigating.

jem16

Update,

We have yet to hear back from HMRC on the urgent enquiries. However my son checked their joint account yesterday to find a deposit from HMRC of £623 paid on the 16th January. :j

Once we receive the letter detailing the result of the enquiry I will update further.

So, glad to say that HMRC did indeed take charge of the situation and resolve it as Mikeyorks said they would.

System

Great news. Given the timing of events it sounds like the bank traced the payment after HMRC got in touch. Either way it's nice to hear it's worked out.

jem16

ceiberman wrote: »

Great news. Given the timing of events it sounds like the bank traced the payment after HMRC got in touch. Either way it's nice to hear it's worked out.

Thanks and thanks also for your support.

They got even better news yesterday from HMRC.

As we had heard nothing from our initial letter posted on 16th December, we posted a letter of complaint on 6th January. That letter was received on 7th January and it turns out that the letter we received on 11th January and dated 8th January was no coincidence.

Yesterday we received a reply to that complaint and it appears that HMRC have agreed that this whole matter was not handled well. Following their complaints policy, they have arranged to pay my daughter-in-law £50 as recompense for telephone calls, stationery and postage plus £100 for the frustration and worry caused. This will be sent by cheque shortly.

We have still to hear back from them confirming that the refund has been paid into the bank (although we know it has obviously) and hopefully an explanation of what went wrong.

My son and daughter-in-law have been here visiting for the last 10 days and this has been great news for them both.

As promised, I will update the thread as soon as we hear about where the cheque went.