HMRC cheque "stolen" by whom?

antonic

jem16 wrote: »

Then what exactly is the point of us asking for photocopies of the cheque?

We already know it's been cashed on the 16th October as HMRC have already told us this.

Because on the front/back of the Payable Order/cheque there will be sufficient information for them to trace where it was cashed.

jem16

antonic wrote: »

Because on the front/back of the Payable Order/cheque there will be sufficient information for them to trace where it was cashed.

Yes I know that.

However what you seem to be saying is that we don't have a right to see that therefore what proof have we got?

So again why are we asking for photocopies of the cheque?

System

jem16 wrote: »

Then what exactly is the point of us asking for photocopies of the cheque?

We already know it's been cashed on the 16th October as HMRC have already told us this.

There are a number of points.

1) it'll tell your daughter-in-law one way or the other if the payable order was issued correctly. Correct bank details given to hmrc + wrong detail on PO = HMRCs problem.

2) during the clearing process you'd expect to see a number of codes printed on the PO. This should help the bank trace they payment within their system.

If the right details were printed by HMRC but the money is in the banks suspense account the photocopy should help sort the problem.

System

jem16 wrote: »

Yes I know that.

However what you seem to be saying is that we don't have a right to see that therefore what proof have we got?

So again why are we asking for photocopies of the cheque?

You (or rather your D-i-L) will get to see the copy cheque. It's just the references won't mean anything to you and you won't know who cashed the cheque. But that's not really the purpose...the codes will mean something to the bank. The photocopy is (mostly) to help them help you.

antonic

jem16 wrote: »

Yes I know that.

However what you seem to be saying is that we don't have a right to see that therefore what proof have we got?

So again why are we asking for photocopies of the cheque?

See my post #58 again.

Obviously you dont trust HMRC (and actually I cant blame you), but unless you actually want to believe what they tell you, then your not going to get what you want out of this.

HMRC havent got a grudge against your daughter, its a case of repayment going missing, which if you provide the evidence to show that it has been misappropriated , then they *should* replace it.

I have done as much as I can to help you, and so therefore I am bowing out now, I wish you good luck in your quest, and please come back and tell us the result.

jem16

ceiberman wrote: »

You (or rather your D-i-L) will get to see the copy cheque. It's just the references won't mean anything to you and you won't know who cashed the cheque. But that's not really the purpose...the codes will mean something to the bank. The photocopy is (mostly) to help them help you.

Thank you. This is what I was after. We don't need to know who the bank account belongs to, we just need to know it wasn't my daughter-in-law's and that an actual cheque made payable to her exists.

What we're still a little unsure on is how the bank knows which account to pay it into. I assume a covering letter must be sent with it but when asking HMRC that very question, my daughter-in-law was told by the call centre rep that she had no idea what was on it?

Can anyone help with that?

antonic wrote: »

See my post #58 again.

Obviously you dont trust HMRC (and actually I cant blame you), but unless you actually want to believe what they tell you, then your not going to get what you want out of this.

When I first posted, I had every faith in HMRC to do the correct thing and issue another payment as it had obviously not reached the correct destination and the debt was still owed to my daughter-in-law.

However having read some of the replies on here, especially from jimmo an ex tax-inspector, I now have very little trust in that happening so yes we want as much proof as possible. She was even told on Saturday by HMRC call centre, that as the cheque had been cashed then that was that as they wouldn't issue another.

HMRC havent got a grudge against your daughter, its a case of repayment going missing, which if you provide the evidence to show that it has been misappropriated , then they *should* replace it.

That is all I would expect of any company or indeed any individual. Yes if it has been fraudulently cashed than HMRC are also victims and I have sympathy with them too.

I have done as much as I can to help you, and so therefore I am bowing out now, I wish you good luck in your quest, and please come back and tell us the result.

Please forgive me if I have come over as "shooting the messenger" with regards to your posts. You have been extremely helpful and I, along with my son and daughter-in-law, are very appreciative.

System

jem16 wrote: »

Thank you. This is what I was after. We don't need to know who the bank account belongs to, we just need to know it wasn't my daughter-in-law's and that an actual cheque made payable to her exists.

What we're still a little unsure on is how the bank knows which account to pay it into. I assume a covering letter must be sent with it but when asking HMRC that very question, my daughter-in-law was told by the call centre rep that she had no idea what was on it?

Can anyone help with that?

I've seen them in the past. The PO should show the intended recipients address - in this case the bank. It should also show your DiL's account number and sortcode. It's all printed on the PO itself.

I appreciate the bank have said it's not in a suspense account but tbh they have no way of knowing for sure at this stage. They'd need to trace the cheque first.

When I first posted, I had every faith in HMRC to do the correct thing and issue another payment as it had obviously not reached the correct destination and the debt was still owed to my daughter-in-law.

However having read some of the replies on here, especially from jimmo an ex tax-inspector, I now have very little trust in that happening so yes we want as much proof as possible. She was even told on Saturday by HMRC call centre, that as the cheque had been cashed then that was that as they wouldn't issue another.

The short answer is the adviser was wrong or at very best the advice was incomplete. But we've probably covered that hypothetical for now.

That is all I would expect of any company or indeed any individual. Yes if it has been fraudulently cashed than HMRC are also victims and I have sympathy with them too.

Let's hope it doesn't turn out to be that. And of course HMRC while being a victim in that scenario are really just a proxy for all of us. After all its not HMRC money but the public purse....so to speak.

Anyway not much more that can be done at this stage. Hope it's all resolved as quickly as possible. All the best.

Mikeyorks

jem16 wrote: »

So again why are we asking for photocopies of the cheque?

Quite right Jem - there is absolutely no reason for you to be doing that. And it won't help you - save under one very unusual circumstance.

If HMRC had sent the repayment cheque to 'you' then it becomes your sole responsibility, from that point, to get credit for it.

But they sent it to your Bank. And they sent it with disposal instructions. At which point they assumed full responsibility for the credit getting into your account.

As it hasn't done so then you need to notify them so they can look. And the starting point is the reverse of the paid cheque which showed who processed it / which cheque transport it was done on / at what time / in which Batch ...... and which account it was aimed at. That paid cheque is held by HMRC - there is no other 'Bank' that holds it. As I said in my earlier post HMRC do these repayments from cradle to grave.

If that account is not the one HMRC instructed then they will contact the Bank and ask they investigate. And they will get directly into the Bank processing sections (likely outsourced) which is more than you could do on a DIY basis. It won't be fast - but it will get done. And it won't be the first time HMRC have had to do it.

There's a really remote chance that the account on the cheque audit trail is your account. Despite the account doesn't hold the credit. I've seen it happen where the physical cheque bears one account yet the electronic record from that cheque (which is used going forward) bears a different one. This happens where there is a wreck / jam on the high speed transports used for processing the cheques and the operator doesn't pull the process back to the right point. It's rare - but it can happen from time to time. In such cases the Bank would need all the data on the reverse of the cheque in order to recover your credit from the account (usually the one being targeted by the cheque before / after yours in the track) it finished in.

If you haven't yet sent your letter in then by hand via a local enquiry centre might be an option? They should be able to send it direct to where the physical paid cheques are held (Worthing?). They won't have images of these - so it needs to be a look at the reverse of the original.

John_Pierpoint

Mikeyorks wrote: »

If you haven't yet sent your letter in then by hand via a local enquiry centre might be an option? They should be able to send it direct to where the physical paid cheques are held (Worthing?). They won't have images of these - so it needs to be a look at the reverse of the original.

How many of these still exist?
I used to use mine as a post office, back in the days when I was forced to use the manual system for Self Assessment.
Then it started being cut back, no longer half a dozen staff for 5 days a week and they refused to take it.
Then it became one woman and a hot line telephone.
Now it seems to have closed down completely.

jem16

Mikeyorks wrote: »

Quite right Jem - there is absolutely no reason for you to be doing that.

I suppose the only way it will help us is to see that the actual cheque existed and was sent correctly to the bank.

If HMRC had sent the repayment cheque to 'you' then it becomes your sole responsibility, from that point, to get credit for it.

But they sent it to your Bank. And they sent it with disposal instructions. At which point they assumed full responsibility for the credit getting into your account.

Good to know - thanks.

So really as it hasn't reached her account, they need to rectify the situation.

If you haven't yet sent your letter in then by hand via a local enquiry centre might be an option?

The letter was sent on Monday.

We will keep the enquiry centre as an option though. The East Kilbride one is only 5 minutes away and still seems to be open although not as often as it used to be.