HMRC cheque "stolen" by whom?

jem16

Can anyone advise the best way to go about this please?

My son and daughter-in-law moved to Canada last October and KPMG were supposed to be dealing with UK tax returns and P85 etc as part of the relocation. Turns out they only dealt with my son's. So my daughter-in-law completed her P85 when I was visiting last July and I posted it to HMRC along with the P45 when I returned home.

In September she got a letter in Canada as a result of the P85 saying that they had already sent her a refund cheque in May to her UK address. Found this strange as all their mail is currently being redirected to me and nothing had arrived. Managed to get a hold of it via the Letting Agency and discovered it had been sent in her maiden name which was why it was not redirected.

So she phoned HMRC and requested a new cheque be sent out and asked for it to be paid directly into her UK bank account - she assumed this would mean an electronic bank transfer but apparently not as she later learned. This had to be done in writing as they would not accept her instructions by phone. Letter sent 27th September.

Having waited 6 weeks and still no refund, she contacted HMRC again to be told that a cheque had been sent to her bank. She told them that nothing had been paid into her bank account. They said they would reissue the cheque. She asked if it could be sent to me so I could pay it in for her. She was told to write once again as they couldn't accept verbal instructions yet again.

So letter sent on 11th November requesting reissue of the cheque and asking for her correspondence address to be mine so that it was quicker than writing to Canada.

Yesterday my son informs me that his wife received a letter dated 18th November in Canada to say that the cheque sent to her bank had been cashed sometime in October, yet when she phoned on November 9th they could only tell her it was sent. They've phoned the bank who say there has been no payment into their bank and nothing is in any holding account.

They are both getting fed up of this carry on having been trying to get the refund since July. Every time my daughter phones, she gets told to put her instructions in writing and then is supposed to wait another 5/6 weeks till HMRC get around to it. She questioned why it wasn't paid directly into her UK bank account as that was what she had requested in the P85 and when she phoned and then wrote in September. Can't do that she is told as PAYE refunds cannot be paid directly into the bank.

What's the best way to get this resolved speedily? As it's £623 she is quite keen to get it.

jonesMUFCforever

Ask HMRC (in writing of course) for copies of front and back of cheque - the codes on there will indicate which account they were paid into.

jimmo

From HMRC’s point of view if they have issued a cheque in accordance with the payee’s instructions they have done their bit.
Whatever has gone wrong after that is not really their concern but, certainly in my day, they would provide a photocopy of the cleared cheque which gave (on the back) the sort code and account number that the cheque was paid into.
Bringing this up to date if HMRC posted a cheque to your daughter in law’s bank there are 2 possibilities I can think of.
1) The bank received the cheque and credited it to an account other than your daughter in law’s.
2)The cheque didn’t actually reach the bank, somebody else got hold of it and fraudulently cashed it.
Either way it is not HMRC’s problem. Either the bank messed up or somebody stole the cheque. Now this is something I never really got my head around but, if HMRC correctly posted the cheque their attitude is that it was not stolen from HMRC. It was stolen from your daughter in law and she needs to report the theft to the police.
Bearing that in mind I think you need to focus on
1) Did HMRC mess up in some way when issuing the cheque?
Why they issued the original cheque in your daughter in law’s maiden name is a bit of a mystery but nothing really to do with the rogue cheque issued later.
2) Did her bank mess up crediting her cheque to a wrong account?
If 1 and 2 fail I am afraid it is down to the police catching the thief.

antonic

Jem,

I am sure you are aware that when HMRC issue refunds its NOT in the form of a cheque, its actually in the form of a Payable Order.

This means that as Jimmo states, once the PO has been posted , thats where HMRC`s responsibility ends, because as Jimmo has said, they have mad the repayment to her, in the form that she has requested.

The problem with issuing PO`s, is that they can be cashed at anywhere of the numerous cheque cashing places there are on the high st, and if you can find out where it was cashed (as JonesMUFCForever suggested) then she *may* be able to prove fraud and get a replacement payment , but I wouldnt hold my breath on that.

Although PO`s are issued in plain envelopes, anyone who has knowledge of what they look like can intercept them, thats why HMRC prefer to repay electronically to bank accounts.

Good luck and I hope she gets this sorted positively in her favour.

magpiecottage

antonic wrote: »

I am sure you are ware that when HMRC issue refunds its NOT in the form of a cheque, its actually in the form of a Payable Order.

I have had refunds paid straight into my bank account before now.

antonic

magpiecottage wrote: »

I have had refunds paid straight into my bank account before now.

That will be because HMRC have your bank account details.

If they dont have these details they issue Payable Orders.

jem16

jimmo wrote: »

From HMRC’s point of view if they have issued a cheque in accordance with the payee’s instructions they have done their bit.

That's the point really. They have not followed my daughter-in-law's instructions twice now.

In August the P85 was sent to them and specifically requested that any refund due was paid directly into her UK bank account. Bank details were provided on that form.

On September 25th, having got a hold of the original cheque in her maiden name, phoned HMRC. She asked that payment be made directly into her UK bank account as sending a cheque to Canada wasn't of any use to her. She was told to write with the bank details even though she told them that she had already supplied them via the P85. So a letter was sent the next day specifically asking for payment to be made directly into her bank account and the bank details provided.

Having still received no rebate, she again phoned on 9th November and this time was told that direct payments into bank accounts were not done under PAYE. She was told to write again to ask for the cheque to be reissued.

So on the 11th November she again wrote to HMRC, asking for her correspondence address to be changed to mine and that they send a new cheque in her name to that address.

On 18th November, they wrote to her in Canada saying the cheques had been cashed on 16th October. So they have completely ignored the letter of the 11th to send all correspondence to my address. If they had done as requested it would have got to me quicker.

antonic wrote: »

Jem,

I am sure you are aware that when HMRC issue refunds its NOT in the form of a cheque, its actually in the form of a Payable Order.

Unfortunately no I wasn't aware of this. Any refunds that I have been due have always been paid by direct bank transfer but I do SA each year. My son received his refund directly into his bank but again he had to do a SA with his P85 as that is what the accountant did when sorting out his tax affairs as part of the relocation.

This means that as Jimmo states, once the PO has been posted , thats where HMRC`s responsibility ends, because as Jimmo has said, they have mad the repayment to her, in the form that she has requested.

Except that it hasn't been in the form that was requested.

Although PO`s are issued in plain envelopes, anyone who has knowledge of what they look like can intercept them, thats why HMRC prefer to repay electronically to bank accounts.

Then why have they not done that as that is what she wanted and has supplied all the details to enable it to be carried out?

Macca83_2

jimmo wrote: »

Now this is something I never really got my head around but, if HMRC correctly posted the cheque their attitude is that it was not stolen from HMRC. It was stolen from your daughter in law and she needs to report the theft to the police.

I can't get my head round that either. That doesn't make any sense. And how do they prove that they correctly posted the cheque? Who's to say that the wrong details weren't provided on the envelope?

antonic

Macca83 wrote: »

I can't get my head round that either. That doesn't make any sense. And how do they prove that they correctly posted the cheque? Who's to say that the wrong details weren't provided on the envelope?

When a PO is issued, it will show on the account as a debit because an amount is being repaid and the account will show the date the PO was approved and , when cashed, the date the PO was cashed.

antonic

Apologies Jem,

I missed the point that she had asked for an electronic payment.

I would suggest complaining and asking for the following :

1) Why wasnt the instruction for an electronic payment followed
2) Immediate payment of the refund due and
3) Details of where the PO was cashed - HMRC wont tell you WHO cashed it, but they will be able to ascertain WHERE it was cashed.

Macca83_2

antonic wrote: »

When a PO is issued, it will show on the account as a debit because an amount is being repaid and the account will show the date the PO was approved and , when cashed, the date the PO was cashed.

But that still doesn't answer my question. How does that prove they posted it correctly? It proves it was approved, issued and cashed. But that doesn't prove it was posted to the correct person or place.

I think the statement was that 'if Hmrc correctly posted the cheque, then their attitude is that it hasn't been stolen from hmrc'

How do they prove that?