HMRC cheque "stolen" by whom?

jimmo

Sorry if I’m repeating myself but from HMRC’s point of view the nitty-gritty seems to be.
Sept 2013 She requested that her repayment be paid to her bank.
Sep/ Oct 2013 HMRC posted a cheque(Payable Order) to her bank.
Oct 2013. The cheques was cashed.
Nov 2013 correspondence address changed to yours but too late to have any effect on where the repayment was to be sent.
So, apart from the fact that they don’t do bank transfers, where have they gone wrong?
Again, from HMRC’s point of view, they posted a cheque in pretty good time and it has been cashed.
I can understand your frustration that your daughter-in-law thought that, when she was talking to HMRC, she was talking about a bank transfer but I really can’t say whether the HMRC person she spoke to actually knew the difference between an automatic transfer and posting a cheque to the bank. However that’s really about recriminations rather than the key issue of where the £623 has gone.
HMRC have paid out £623 and it has been cashed. They will, almost certainly, take the attitude that there is no way they will pay this out again because nothing you have posted, so far, points to a failure in their admittedly archaic system.
I really think you need to focus on that.
They posted a cheque in accordance with the claimant’s, then current, instructions and it has been cashed. So where have they gone wrong?

antonic

Please see my points in RED

jem16 wrote: »

Ok will send Recorded Delivery to the Cardiff address.

I wouldnt bother sending it Recorded Delivery, send it normal post and get a proof of postage receipt from the Post Office.


We're just not sure how hard to press at the moment.

The person who asked to be informed is an Administrative officer. Really not sure if this is high enough up to get somewhere faster and therefore simply ask for it be investigated or whether to go with complaint now.

The grade of the person doing the investigation is irrelevant.

The AO grade are the main grade in the HMRC and if you complain to a higher grade , the responsibility for the investigation will fall to the AO, who will make a report to the O(fiicer) grade, who will then submit a report to the Complaints team.

My son and daughter-in-law have naturally run out of patience after all of this and want to go in with full guns blazing so to speak.

I'm just wondering if caution is required first.

As someone who investigates complaints on a fairly regular basis, I would suggest that they keep the complaint short, polite and focus on the issues that they want investigating and resolving.

The main point to me that needs investigating is WHERE was the Payable Order/Cheque cashed and the date AND will they consider issuing a duplicate.

Obviously they need to be aware that they may not get the answers that they want to hear.

jem16

jimmo wrote: »

They posted a cheque in accordance with the claimant’s, then current, instructions and it has been cashed. So where have they gone wrong?

Jimmo, no offence, but you need to take off your tax inspector hat and look at this from the point of view of the customer.

Customer requests direct deposit into bank account by both telephone and letter. To the customer and everyone else living in the 21st century, that means electronic bank transfer.

Customer has no reason at all to assume HMRC do not do bank transfers for PAYE especially as it says on their website which customer has bothered to read;

An Income Tax repayment is a refund of tax that you've overpaid. So, if you've paid too much tax for example through your job or pension this year or in previous years HMRC will send you a repayment. You'll get the repayment either by cheque in the post, by bank transfer or through your wages.

Now HMRC knows ( as should all of its employees) that PAYE refunds are only sent by cheque and that the customer is asking for something that cannot be done. So what do they do;

A. Inform the customer so that customer can make an informed decision as to where they want the cheque sent,

OR

B. Go ahead and send a cheque anyway knowing full well that was not what the customer requested, also knowing full well that it's not the most secure method of payment and even goes against their recommendations for customers paying HMRC.

HMRC offers a number of payment options but recommends that you make your payments electronically because it's:
•safe and secure

Now I, if I was running a business that cares about its customers, would go for option A.

That failure to communicate with their customers and follow their own guidelines for safe and secure payments is what we will be pursuing if the need to complain arises.

jem16

antonic wrote: »

The main point to me that needs investigating is WHERE was the Payable Order/Cheque cashed and the date AND will they consider issuing a duplicate.

That is what we have asked to be investigated. Their letter states that they will issue another cheque if appropriate. So certainly, at the moment, HMRC have not gone down the line of "we've sent the cheque, it's been cashed, so tough luck!"

Obviously they need to be aware that they may not get the answers that they want to hear.

No they are well aware of that outcome. However it will be pursued on the points raised to jimmo.

I doubt very much that HMRC would be happy to write off £623 if my daughter-in-law owed them money.

Gas_Powered_Toothbrush

jem16 wrote: »

I doubt very much that HMRC would be happy to write off £623 if my daughter-in-law owed them money.

What if your daughter-in-law sent them a cheque for £623, it was cashed, and then they asked her to pay another £623? Presumably she'd have no issue doing this since she's asking them to do it?

jem16

Gas_Powered_Toothbrush wrote: »

What if your daughter-in-law sent them a cheque for £623, it was cashed, and then they asked her to pay another £623?

So she is not allowed to ask HMRC for a replacement cheque but HMRC are allowed to ask her? Works both ways I'm afraid and we all know that HMRC will pursue unpaid tax.

Presumably she'd have no issue doing this since she's asking them to do it?

As she wouldn't have sent a cheque as it's not a safe and recommended ( as per HMRC guidelines) method of payment, the issue would never have arisen. She would have paid by bank transfer and done what was requested of her.

Surely it's not expecting too much for a large operation such as HMRC to treat their customers professionally and do the same as they expect of them?

chrismac1

Calling taxpayers "customers" is what passes for a sense of humour in HMRC, jem. Don't let the b******s grind you down!

System

jem16 wrote: »

So she is not allowed to ask HMRC for a replacement cheque but HMRC are allowed to ask her? Works both ways I'm afraid and we all know that HMRC will pursue unpaid tax.



As she wouldn't have sent a cheque as it's not a safe and recommended ( as per HMRC guidelines) method of payment, the issue would never have arisen. She would have paid by bank transfer and done what was requested of her.

Surely it's not expecting too much for a large operation such as HMRC to treat their customers professionally and do the same as they expect of them?

Just a thought, but at this stage isn't it possible that the problem is at the banks end and not HMRC? All that's really known so far is the payable order has been cashed but not reached the intended account.

There could be a number of reasons for this. I've seen many times where banks have accidentally overwritten account details on cheques and payable orders during the clearing process - and this has caused problems for their system. More often than not, in cases like that, the money gets stuck in the bank's suspense account because they don't know where it's supposed to go.

It will get sorted but it might take some time. Look at this way. The possibilities are:

1) the wrong bank details were provided.
The least likely scenario. But if they were, the money is probably in the banks suspense account.

2) HMRC recorded the bank details incorrectly.
Always possible. And if that is the case they should be able to issue a replacement. Getting the money back from the original payable order is HMRC' s problem (if they got it wrong) and it shouldn't delay the replacement.

3) the cheque was correctly issued but something went wrong during the clearing system.
Again quite possible. If that's the case it's not really a HMRC issue but a bank one. HMRC will normally help by providing a copy of the cheque. But if the problem at the banks end, its the bank that ultimately has to sort it.

4) Fraud.
If the cheque/payable order was sent directly to the bank this seems unlikely. Of course it can't be ruled out entirely, but it's not like it was sent to a residential address where it could have been easily intercepted. If it is fraud then HMRC (and by extension the public purse) is as much a victim as your daughter-in-law. Fraud cases can get very messy and can take time to sort out. But as I said - fraud doesn't sound that likely.

Anyway I hope it gets sorted as soon as possible. Once you get a copy of the payable order hopefully things will move on quickly.

System

jem16 wrote: »

Customer requests direct deposit into bank account by both telephone and letter. To the customer and everyone else living in the 21st century, that means electronic bank transfer.

.

It's unbelievable that a large organisation living in 2013 still uses cheques.
They were about to be abolished a few months ago, but only reprieved because of representations form small shopkeepers and pensioners.
What plans did HMRC have if cheques had been abolished, as indeed they still will be at some time ?

John_Pierpoint

I hope not.
The only reason the banks want to get rid of them is because they don't want the competition. The thought that I can create credit just like they do does not suit them, nor does it suit the politicians, who must be wondering how to strangle the likes of bit coin at birth.
The bill of exchange was a great historical invention, and I can remember when the Irish banks went on strike, and the those involved in the real commerce of the nation just carried on without them. It reminded me of the last time that the Post Office went on a total strike lead by that fellow with the handle bar moustache. I soon worked out how to carry on without them.

I would cheerfully pay £1in advance per cheque if absolutely necessary.