NEWBIES!!! [Sticky Thread Comments Archive]

Stroma

It won't matter in the appeal as in winning it, but pofa allows you to act as the keeper of the vehicle and appeal, for example the registered keeper of a leased car, that would be the leasing company, it's leased to a company but they can't be driving it so someone is, and that could be the keeper, but then it could be the spouse of the keeper.

The point is why aid a company in their aim to enforce tickets, the driver is liable but the keeper is not necessary so. It is a bit bonkers at times but we on here are of the opinion that we should not help parking companies, hence my signature below.

bod1467

In simple terms ... POFA2012 provides a means for PPCs to pursue a registered keeper where the driver is unknown. If the requirements of POFA are not adhered to by the PPC then there is no keeper liability and they can only (legally) pursue the driver. (And the keeper is under no obligation to identify the driver).

Whether anyone has won against a PPC on this single point alone I don't know, but that's the legal position.

Coupon-mad

MSE_Marcel wrote: »

Thanks both, one point I'm still researching is why not naming the driver helps when using this approach. The scanning for omissions in a Notice to Keeper from the relevant schedule of the POFA Act makes perfect sense, but having looked at success stories across the Forum, I can't see where someone has not named the driver while appealing a NtK, and succeeded on this technicality alone, unless I've missed them?

bod1467 wrote: »

Whether anyone has won against a PPC on this single point alone I don't know, but that's the legal position.

Lots have won on 'no keeper liability'. Here's just one example of quite a few from here or from pepipoo (sorry this one happens to be from pepipoo!):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=80971

...you could cite any other case where POPLA found in favour of the appellant due to any failure in the NTK and there are certainly some in our 'POPLA decisions' sticky, from the past year. It would take some trawling through the POPLA decisions sticky to find them because POPLA prefer the easy 'no GPEOL' when given a choice.

The key point I'm trying to establish is how not naming the driver, when you're the registered keeper, can really help your appeal to be successful. Any help greatly appreciated!

Basically because most PPCs don't fulfil the requirements of Schedule 4 and even if a newbie can't spot the flaws early doors, they would be in a stronger position later on at POPLA or IPC, by appealing only as the keeper, once they've realised their PPC has missed the NTK deadline for example.

Bear in mind that the PPCs are trying to get around the 'no GPEOL' issue that catches most of them out and also, IPC members don't operate that business model. So it's important to know that 'no GPEOL' won't beat an IPC member at IAS appeal unless they've slipped up. We need more ammo, so Schedule 4 wording and statutory deadline breaches would be silly to throw away.

On the other hand, mere BPA and IPC Code of Practice breaches do not in their own right win at POPLA/IPC appeal stage since the decisions focus on contract law.

And by the way, the IPC IAS has now - this week - agreed that appeals to them DO NOT have to identify the driver any more (following a complaint to the DVLA that they took 7 months to decide on). So an appeal from the registered keeper, keeping schtumm about the driver, can now be submitted to the IAS as well (the IPC being the 'other' ATA, where the PPC comes under the IPC scheme instead of the BPA Ltd and POPLA).

Some PPCs don't use NTKs that invoke POFA 2012 at all (e.g. CEL, Smart Parking). So you can imagine how someone appealing as keeper, and pointing out the PPC hasn't invoked POFA 2012 at all as their Notices make no attempt to mention any of the statutory wording from para 8 or 9 of Schedule 4, will certainly win at POPLA. Whereas a driver who has rushed to appeal and 'say what happened', will have thrown all that away!

Particularly important not to name the driver where the PCN is in a site that is 'not relevant land' under POFA, because an appeal from the registered keeper leaves the PPC up the creek without a paddle. The keeper isn't liable as POFA doesn't apply where there are byelaws or other statutory provision re parking of motor vehicles, such as railways, ports, and Airports (and we get a LOT of cases at Airports re drop-offs!):

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/popla-decree-parkingeye-are-incorrectly.html

I know I say to appeal early to NCP at railway car parks, to avoid them churning out debt collector drivel and arguing the toss about the keeper's right to appeal. But be aware that by appealing early you still don't have to to name the driver! I still say to use the template starting 'I am the registered keeper' even if appealing early to a small PPC or NCP.

It may be a case of me needing to scan the POFA Act to see where this gives greater grounds of appeal, than merely appealing as just a driver.

I don't think you'll really find that spelt out in the POFA 2012, it's more of an observation by us. It's just that if you appeal as keeper you can rely on POFA 2012 by the same token that the PPCs try to, and you can then catch them out on NTK wording, or the time limit on service of the NTK, or exempt sites that are not 'relevant land' or anything else you think they've breached in the POFA.

Some PPCs aren't even members of the BPA or IPC, so a poster would be DAFT to send their name & address on a plate as they cannot get your data from the DVLA, like here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4978577

Loads of PPCs send their postal PCNs late, particularly those who use ANPR (with the exception of ParkingEye who now rarely miss the 14 days).

P.S. re ParkingEye:
On the positive side, ParkingEye are atypical as they WILL almost always cancel at a retail park when a person sends proof of purchase over £30. No need to say who was driving though, it is 'the driver's receipt' when including a copy as part of a longer appeal (not only relying on the 'story of what happened'.)

And on the negative side, ParkingEye sue people left right and centre so it's important to keep as many appeal options open as possible to beat them at POPLA instead, stops them dead.

Umkomaas

Super summation Coupon.

nodiscount

Hi

I have been reading the first post of this sticky. I've got a question about this bit:

Consider waiting for the postal 'Notice to Keeper' in MOST cases, unless it is NCP or Meteor or WING or a small PPC like 'JAS' or 'JD Parking Consultants' or 'UCS parking Ltd' or 'P4Parking aka Nighthawk' who faff about sending debt collector letters and don't even send a NTK. If so, latest advice is to avoid the debt collector rubbish and in the case of the firms listed above, appeal after around 21 days .....

Why wait 21 days though if they aren't going to send any NTK? Why not act as soon as you see the windscreen notice?

pogofish

nodiscount wrote: »

Hi

I have been reading the first post of this sticky. I've got a question about this bit:

Why wait 21 days though if they aren't going to send any NTK? Why not act as soon as you see the windscreen notice?

Why not start your own thread, or look at the many other threads here discussing just this - Please don't hijack info threads.

bod1467

To be fair, this is asking for clarification of what is IN this info thread.

Flo73

Just wanted to say thank you for all the fantastic information in this thread. I am a Newbie who received a letter from ParkingEye for over-staying the parking allowance by 20 minutes (where the time allocation was 30 minutes). It was the Crowne Wharf Shopping Centre in Walsall, and the 'offence' was over 12 months ago, but I received the letter 2 weeks ago as I had changed address. I had never been to the centre before (nor do I intend to return) and didn't see the PE signs (neither would I expect a maximum parking time of 30 minutes to be applicable at a shopping centre!) ANYWAY ... I invested the time as suggested in the threads, and did my research as guided by all the brilliant MoneySavers. I sent a letter using the text outlined in the thread by Coupon-mad, adding evidence of spend, and received a letter two days ago saying that as a gesture of goodwill they would not be pursuing the 'fine'.

So - thank you (particularly Coupon-Mad)! I absolutely recommend that if you've had one of these letters that you spend the time reading the advice, and follow it exactly.

Dee140157

Flo that is good news, well done. It shows it works. However can you make a new thread for this rather than on here, which is just the advice thread.

PCN you need to start a new thread please to ask for advice. You need to be specific about what you wish to complain about. Contact Details are available in post 6 of (this) Newbies thread

If you can delete this/these posts this would be good. (Click edit, delete, delete) to save Crabman having to split them from this thread.

Crabman

This thread is for general information only.

Please do not post questions about your parking tickets in this thread.

For personalised help and guidance from our wonderful forum regulars (for free ) please start your own thread by clicking on this blue button: