Arking pie guile, near saint ansted runway

edited 30 November 2013 at 2:53AM in Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
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ampersandampersand Forumite
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edited 30 November 2013 at 2:53AM in Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking
What was 'evening all' is now Good Morning.

Arrived back to PCN in post and, with thanks to gambalunga, whose marvellous letter [peppipoo 36]framework I have adapted as required, having absorbed much reading from reference essentially pooled by the extraordinary couponmad, including wonderful contributions by so many.

I want it out from under; can this go? Thankyou[seems inadequate] in advance
###############
Appeals Department,
ParkingEye,
[SPATIAL ELISION USED THROUGHOUT, AS PER ORIGINAL]
P.O. BOX 565,
Chorley,
PR6 6HT.

29 November, 2013.

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN : Ref. No. BLAHBLAH

Without prejudice, except as to costs

YOUR curious[and spurious] demand for money has been received.

In order that dealing with it may begin, you must first fully address and answer, to my full satisfaction, all questions set out below. You may infer I challenge this alleged claim against me with initial reference to the following:

1. Cause of action.
You must make clear if it is your claim that I entered into a ontract. Please send me a complete version of the terms and conditions of that contract to which you say I agreed. Further to the above, please explain fully, with valid and relevant evidence, on which of the following grounds [no others being admissible] your claim is based:
a. Damages for trespass
b. Damages for breach of contract
c. A contractual sum

2. Your loss.
If it is your case that a trespass was committed, or that a contract
was breached such that your claim is one for damages, please give me a full breakdown of the actual loss you say was suffered by your business or by the landowner/landholder.

3. Status.
Your letter refers to [place] with further reference to [co.name] and to bountyhunters Ltd[spatial elision]. Who is the actual creditor making this claim for £100? This amount is referred to as a ‘parking charge’ for which signage is allegedly displayed. For the validity of any claim to be considered, you must advise who is making this claim and in what capacity.

4. ‘Observed’.
Your letter states that the vehicle was ‘observed without a valid
permit or authority.’ Please send me a copy of your procedures for handling and processing the alleged photographic evidence and the relevant audit trail. Furthermore, under section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 I require a copy of all such photographs, along with a copy of all other data you hold relating to me. As you would be required in any event to disclose this as part of your evidence bundle in the small claims process, I do not expect to pay for the release of my personal data which you hold, without any proof of contract entered into by me.
.
5. ‘Ownership’.
Please advise, fully, who owns the land on which you claim this vehicle was parked. I wish to retrospectively include them in this and any further correspondence on this matter. Please note: ‘fully’, means supplying corroborative proof of each and every responsible director or relevant individual, with correct postal addresses for the receipt of all mails which may addressed to them in pursuance of this matter, any such costs to be part of my relevant subsequent claim.

6. Landholder / Landowner.
Your letter mentions that the vehicle entered ‘the Welcome Break xx car park“ and “the car park is managed by bountyhunters[spatial elision] Ltd. In the particular circumstances of this ‘incident’, I challenge the legality of those so named, to exact any sort of financial penalty, let alone £100, or any other ‘charge’.

7. Contract to operate.
It is my understanding that bountyhunters[spatial elision] Ltd.are not authorised to make contracts on behalf of the motorway service provider named. I would be obliged if you can explain any such involvement of the landowner / landholder in this case and provide me with a copy of any contract between your company and that proven landowner /landholder. To resolve any doubt please include their proof of ownership / holding for the land on which the vehicle was parked.

8. Signage and Contract.
The latter does not exist. The former is merely alleged. No reason is required to enter the area; none is required by law. On the other hand, prominent motorway notices nearby exhort tired drivers to take a break. In the circumstances of this ‘incident’, any prescriptive signage that threatens action, or demands money is simply invalid.

I would point out that there has been no negotiation, no meeting, no correspondence, no conduct leading any reasonable person to assume the awareness or existence of any meeting of minds in this case. Any reasonable doubt concerning terms of any alleged contract, and/or its interpretation, such as the boundaries, location and ownership of land referred to, therefore lies with the present party and not the absent party or author of the notice. If it is your case that a contract has been breached or that a contractual sum is now due, please send me photographs of the visible signs that you
displayed and upon 'evidence' you seek to prove that a lawful and legally enforceable contract had been mutually entered into.

Please ensure that your irrefutably contemporaneous photographs show the terms and conditions in a clear and legible manner and that the area of land referred to is clearly indicated. Please provide a diagram showing the locations and layout of those signs at the entrance to and throughout the ‘car park‘, including their relation to the vehicle. You are also required to provide evidence that the wording is in plain and intelligible language and in sufficiently large print as to be legible to a driver at the ‘car park’ entry point and that it was adequately illuminated on the evening of [time/date]

9. Punitive / Unfair / Unreasonable.

The ‘parking charge’ [misleading use of a term calculated to imply legality] of £100 is spurious and void. £100 is arbitrary and disproportionate to any alleged breach of contract or trespass. This would also apply to any costs incurred through debt recovery unless this followed a case-specific Court Order.

a. Because your notional £100 'parking charge' is without legality or justification, it is therefore not binding under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. In particular, Schedule 2 of those Regulations gives an indicative (and non-exhaustive) list of terms which may be regarded as unfair. Read this, included at Schedule 2(1)(e):
‘Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation.’

Furthermore, Regulation 5(1) says:
‘A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer’.

And 5(2) states:
‘A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.’

b. Unreasonable

The so-called £100 'parking charge' you are imposing is an unreasonable indemnity clause under section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, which says:
‘A person cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.’

10. ‘Appeal‘
I am concerned that you are not complying with the BPA codes of practice and I am inclined to earnestly raise a formal complaint with the DVLA Data Sharing Policy Group, with reference to this case. This letter - a rebuttal of your demand for money rather than an appeal - is being sent the day following postal receipt of the spuriously named ‘parking charge notice’. This is backed by retained proof of Recorded Delivery, trackable online. A copy of this and any future correspondence, will go to all parties I consider relevant. Your demand included sufficient contact details for a return of correspondence, the above reference number and a time, date, and place. You therefore had no reasonable cause to obtain this data from the DVLA.

You are hereby put on notice to supply a valid POPLA reference to comply with the BPA AOS codes of practice to effect timely and independent resolution via POPLA.

I therefore require:
- a copy of any appeal procedure you intend to follow, along with details of all factors you must take into account.
- the name of any judge or arbitrator and evidence of their independence.
- to know whether you require oral or written submissions.
- to know whether such procedure is governed by the Arbitration Act 1996 and to know any other determinant factors in resolution.

In addition, please disclose any arguments you would put forward on this matter in any subsequent appeal process, so that I might consider a response to any existing or new issues which are raised.

11. Please provide me with the name and address of your solicitors, if any, in order that I may copy them into this correspondence.

Please note this is not an ‘appeal’ as styled by you. Rather, it is a rebuttal and challenge to your issue of a“Notice to Driver / Keeper / Hirer”. As set out in the BPA AOS codes of practice, I require your answers to all questions raised. In this respect I remind you of your obligations set out in the current Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct, in particular reference 1.2.

For the avoidance of doubt, please read carefully, and abide by, what follows.

DO NOT:
a. Send me any further correspondence or documents, or try to communicate with me in any way except to address, in writing and by post, the specific points I have raised in this letter.

b. Send me any document purporting to be from a County Court unless it is a legally binding valid claim form duly issued.

c. Send any 'Further reminders' repeating your alleged ‘charge‘. Your computer-generated letter of 26/11/2013 has been received and is being considered.

d. Write to me threatening to send bailiffs to my address without first issuing a valid Court claim form and obtaining the Court’s judgment, before full recourse to Appeal in Law by me is exhausted.

e. Send me any standard form letters from your company or from debt collectors as no debt exists or is acknowledged.

I look forward to receiving your acknowledgment of this letter within 14 days[13 December 2013] A comprehensive reply is due within 35 days, in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22.8.

I will then make an informed decision on how to suitably respond to your Notice to Driver/Keeper/Hirer.

Any rejection of this rebuttal, or failure to address all the issues that have been raised in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice 22.12, must enclose all the required information (including the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately submit the matter to POPLA scrutiny.

If you fail to follow any of the procedures outlined in the BPA AOS Code of Practice, or satisfy your legal requirements under the Protection of Freedoms Act, or the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct, I will make a formal complaint to the DVLA Data Sharing Policy Group, D16.

Please Note: Unless you have specifically requested it and received my express permission, you do not have my authority to disclose or refer this letter, or any other communication from me, to any other person or organisation.

If you do decide to issue proceedings, please note that:

a) I reserve the right to add further arguments to the defence, including remuneration for 6 hours so far spent on dealing with your specious demand, postal costs, stationery etc.

b) I or my representative will be happy to attend any court mediation that might be offered.

This letter is written wholly without prejudice to my rights and pleas and may not be produced or used in any proceedings by any party or other person except me, or with my prior, express, written consent.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,
&
########
Bed now.
CAP[UK]for FREE EXPERT DEBT &BUDGET HELP:
01274 760721, freephone0800 328 0006
'People don't want much. They want: "Someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work and something to hope for."
Norman Kirk, NZLP- Prime Minister, 1972
***JE SUIS CHARLIE***
'It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere' François-Marie AROUET


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Replies

  • edited 30 November 2013 at 7:41AM
    Guys_DadGuys_Dad Forumite
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    edited 30 November 2013 at 7:41AM
    Your last bit from PLEAEE NOTE incorporating the bit about without prejudice conflicts with POPLA requirements for the PPC to submit all communication received from the motorist.

    For my part, if I was the PPC, following a recent case, I would contend that answering all your demands justified my GPEOL.

    Sometimes you can be just too clever and it can backfire.
  • StromaStroma Forumite
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    Uniform Washer
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    To put it simply I wouldn't send that at all, send a simple appeal around genuine pre-estimate of loss, inadequate & non compliant signage, and that no contract or authority for issuing invoices there. Invite them to cancel the invoice. And make complaints to the landowner/retailer about this
    When posting a parking issue on MSE do not reveal any information that may enable PPCs to identify you. They DO monitor the forum.
    We don't need the following to help you.
    Name, Address, PCN Number, Exact Date Of Incident, Date On Invoice, Reg Number, Vehicle Picture, The Time You Entered & Left Car Park, Or The Amount of Time You Overstayed.
    :beer: Anti Enforcement Hobbyist Member :beer:
  • edited 30 November 2013 at 11:05AM
    ampersandampersand Forumite
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    edited 30 November 2013 at 11:05AM
    Thankyou both - I agree with you stroma. That was my first instinct, but I thought I was carefully following advice after reading and re-reading here, learning of the change since 1 October.
    Bank a/c shows proof of petrol purchase.
    I was on the road, working all day from 2.30a.m. This point is under half way back. I needed to eat, drink from Thermos, didn't enter the shops.
    gambalunga's response was the closest, 2nd linky in coupon-mad's updated Newbies' Info guide, here:
    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?...5&#entry882435[10/11/13].
    I can't do more now until Monday.
    Should I include all the legal ref.s which cover the grounds you cite? -
    'inadequate & non compliant signage, and that no contract or authority for issuing invoices '
    I drove in to rest.
    Do I ask for their pre-estimate of loss, and grounds for it? Didn't see anything on a bleak, wet, windy night, so can't imagine any justifiable amount, or rationale. Finding the way in is maze-like. The only signage was directional and confusing.

    I can understand irritation from all of you who post full advice for newbies, which is why I spent so long going through it all first. Thankyou again if you can suggest another template.
    CAP[UK]for FREE EXPERT DEBT &BUDGET HELP:
    01274 760721, freephone0800 328 0006
    'People don't want much. They want: "Someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work and something to hope for."
    Norman Kirk, NZLP- Prime Minister, 1972
    ***JE SUIS CHARLIE***
    'It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere' François-Marie AROUET


  • Guys_DadGuys_Dad Forumite
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    Keep it simple at this stage and keep your powder dry. You don't ask them about how their costs are made up. We already have that to fire back at POPLA £53 and that includes operational costs. The balance is profit.

    see here
    http://imgur.com/a/vzLDq
  • ampersandampersand Forumite
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    Hello again, I've received another of their notices and 2 follow-up letters, one for each ransom attempt. These 3 arrived with a rubber-band around them - crimbo post schedules?

    I had stopped for same reason - safety, rest, hunger; have done most Thursdays after my 22hr days[officially ancient person]but never will again. Have never seen signage or received notices before. Have sometimes used Little Waitrose and often, restroom. The alleged overstay will have been the norm.

    There was no acknowledgment of my 1st reply.

    Should I treat both incidents separately in comms, or can they be listed together?

    Thankyou again for all your thorough input.
    CAP[UK]for FREE EXPERT DEBT &BUDGET HELP:
    01274 760721, freephone0800 328 0006
    'People don't want much. They want: "Someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work and something to hope for."
    Norman Kirk, NZLP- Prime Minister, 1972
    ***JE SUIS CHARLIE***
    'It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere' François-Marie AROUET


  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad
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    So these are not replies to your challenges? Are they 'reminder' Notices? Why three? Do you mean you have got a third PCN (if so appeal it online as keeper).

    Re the reminder letters, you could go online to PE which costs nowt, and reiterate that you have challenged each PCN and require a response and POPLA code (attach a copy of your challenge so they can't say it never arrived). Do that for each one.

    You just want a POPLA code for each.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • ampersandampersand Forumite
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    Thankyou again coupon-mad[seems an inadequate response for your constant thorough patrolling and minutely detailed responses to each and every Thread]

    Current total:2 PCN, and 2 further letters, one per PCN. I had received only the 1st PCN, which triggered my Thread, until the arrival of the little bundled trio on Friday.

    Back this evening.
    CAP[UK]for FREE EXPERT DEBT &BUDGET HELP:
    01274 760721, freephone0800 328 0006
    'People don't want much. They want: "Someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work and something to hope for."
    Norman Kirk, NZLP- Prime Minister, 1972
    ***JE SUIS CHARLIE***
    'It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere' François-Marie AROUET


  • edited 16 December 2013 at 9:02PM
    ampersandampersand Forumite
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    edited 16 December 2013 at 9:02PM
    Is this alright for em please? It is odd that reminder is for pcn 2. No reminder received for pcn 1.

    Appeals Department,
    xx
    Your ref. xx

    With reference to this matter, as registered keeper, I again Appeal against the above notice. To repeat, the driver saw no signs at the car park in question and I therefore conclude that your signage is non-compliant with the BPA Code of Practice.

    I note that you have a requirement whereby should a keeper name a driver, then that person needs to have a serviceable address.

    If, however, you are willing to accept a name and address from a driver with an unserviceable name and address, please let me know. Otherwise, accept this appeal from me as keeper on grounds of inadequate signage and the fact that the charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

    A correct response and POPLA code are required. As you have failed to acknowledge my earlier Appeal letter,[date] you have supplied neither, hence this email.


    ##########
    Will this suffice?
    Have to be out for afternoon now. Won't hit Send button until I have a yea/nay.
    Thankyou again.
    CAP[UK]for FREE EXPERT DEBT &BUDGET HELP:
    01274 760721, freephone0800 328 0006
    'People don't want much. They want: "Someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work and something to hope for."
    Norman Kirk, NZLP- Prime Minister, 1972
    ***JE SUIS CHARLIE***
    'It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere' François-Marie AROUET


  • ampersandampersand Forumite
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    Back late and failing further news have em'd reply using gan's pared down template, adapted to purpose.
    Dear Sir

    Regarding PCN ****

    I wish to challenge this 'ticket'

    The amount claimed is a penalty not a contractual term

    If you do not cancel it, I require the validation code for POPLA where I will require that you produce your contract for the location.

    Yours Faithfully
    ########
    Trust this suits - http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=77173
    Have covered fact that their prev. failure to answer letters means that future comms will be via email. We'll see if it is necessary to waste further postage.

    Thankyou again for any input.
    CAP[UK]for FREE EXPERT DEBT &BUDGET HELP:
    01274 760721, freephone0800 328 0006
    'People don't want much. They want: "Someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work and something to hope for."
    Norman Kirk, NZLP- Prime Minister, 1972
    ***JE SUIS CHARLIE***
    'It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere' François-Marie AROUET


  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad
    100.1K Posts
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
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    It all looks fine, it's all just a game to 'fish' a POPLA code for each PCN anyway!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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