Mobile Phone Contract - Price Rise Refunds

Mikmonken

I think we can draw on the fact that Ee have not stipulated a minimum time frame to cancel following the change to T&Cs not indeed indicated that we could indeed cancel. I think those to arguments are factual.

RandomCurve

Very tempting!!!


https://jobs-ofcom.icims.com/jobs/1081/chief-operating-officer-group-director-operations/job

factor29

RandomCurve wrote: »

I think in your case another email to Voda is required (you may want to send them a copy of your full response from Ofcom)


Dear X


Thank you for your email dated X.


Please be advise that my dispute with you has nothing to do with your commercial decision to raise prices, it is to do with if your T&Cs are compliant under GC 9.6 and the UTCCRs. Ofcom have been contacted on this issue and their customer Contact Team have advised (under reference 1-265323635)


"On your second question, I can confirm that the Ombudsman Service can accept complaints relating to GC9 and The UTTCRs as they are within the scope of its scheme."


AS Ofcom have confirmed that this is within the scope of the ADR scheme then under GC 14 you are required to issue a deadlock letter. Unless you propose to fully answer the questions put to you 5 times already or are prepared to grant the penalty free cancellation requested, then I will include your non compliance with GC 14 within my compliant to the Ombudsman Service should a deadlock not be received within 7 days.


Regards

Reply received seems a bit different to the others they've always just replied. Not asked me to wait...

Good Morning X

Thank you for your email.

Please be advised we are now reviewing your account for a deadlock as requested. Please allow up to 72 working hours for this review to be completed.

Once the review has been completed we will contact you in writing.

Kind Regards,

RandomCurve

factor29 wrote: »

Reply received seems a bit different to the others they've always just replied. Not asked me to wait...

Good Morning X

Thank you for your email.

Please be advised we are now reviewing your account for a deadlock as requested. Please allow up to 72 working hours for this review to be completed.

Once the review has been completed we will contact you in writing.

Kind Regards,

I love the way they make it sound as though they have a choice!!

RandomCurve

I have prepared another response for Ofcom - they really are as bad (worse?) than EE and Vodafone (and the others!!) for avoiding the issues.
I have 2 version of the email on the FightMobileInceases.com website FMI-5 and FMI-5x for those who have not yet sent Ofcom an email.


We have got nearly 150 people out of their contacts - can we try and get 150 emails to Ofcom?


Thanks


http://fightmobileincreases.com/pressure-ofcom/


Version 5x is as follows (formatting is much better in the word version):




[EMAIL="Ed.Richards@Ofcom.org.uk"]Ed.Richards@Ofcom.org.uk[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="Lynn.Parker@Ofcom.org.uk"]Lynn.Parker@Ofcom.org.uk[/EMAIL]
Graham.Howell[EMAIL="Graham.Howell@Ofcom.org.uk"]@Ofcom.org.uk[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="OCCtelecoms@Ofcom.org.uk"]OCCtelecoms@Ofcom.org.uk[/EMAIL]
And CC.
[EMAIL="Olaf.Swantee@ee.co.uk"]Olaf.Swantee@ee.co.uk[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="jeroen.hoencamp@vodafone.com"]jeroen.hoencamp@vodafone.com[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="Joel.Taylor@ukmetro.co.uk"]Joel.Taylor@ukmetro.co.uk[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="Edwin.lane@bbc.co.uk"]Edwin.lane@bbc.co.uk[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="news@the-sun.co.uk"]news@the-sun.co.uk[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL="info@fightmobileincreases.com"]info@fightmobileincreases.com[/EMAIL]


19 July 2014


Dear Lynn,


I have seen the Ofcom correspondence on the FightMobileIncreases.com website in relation to the EE change on T&Cs and as a concerned consumer I would also like to know Ofcom’s views on the following points:


In an email dated 23rd April from yourself (Lynn Parker) on behalf of Ofcom you state:


“The revised terms are likely to put consumers in a better, or at least no worse, position than the previous terms. They do not purport to create a right to increase prices more than was previously the case, and provide more clarity to subscribers as to the published RPI figure that will be used in such increases”

• Does Ofcom still hold the view that the new EE T&Cs “….do not purport to create a right to increase prices more than was previously the case”?
  Yes or No?

• The UTCCRS Group 10 clauses regarding contract variations (Schedule 2, paragraph 1 (j)) state:
  “10.2 If a term could be used to force the consumer to accept increased costs or penalties, new requirements, or reduced benefits, it is likely to be considered unfair whether or not it is meant to be used in that way……”
• As a designated enforcer of the UTCCRs are Ofcom satisfied that EEs change in T&Cs has not breached Schedule 2 Paragraph 1 (j)?
  Yes or No?
  
  Again in your email of 23rd April it was stated (as above):
  “ …and provide more clarity to subscribers as to the published RPI figure that will be used in such increases”
• Ofcom (with its consumer protection remit in mind) considers that giving customers less scope to exit their contracts when a higher increase than was previously allowed is applied is a benefit to the consumer (the term does NOT clarify which RPI rate will be used, it replaces CPI with RPI) – especially when precisely because of the uncertainty of the inflation rate the old clause was probably unenforceable under OFT group 12.4 rules..
  Yes or No?
  
• It is Ofcom’s view that EEs new contracts effective from 26th March 2014 (as EE issued new contracts – this was not a modification to an existing contract), are not subject to the clarified meaning of Material Detriment?
  Yes or No?
  
  Regarding the use of RPI rather than CPI.
• Ofcom are aware that RPI is NOT a designated National Statistic
  Yes or No?
  
• Ofcom are aware that the ONS have categorically stated that due to the calculation metrologies used RPI will ALWAYS OVERSTATE the true inflationary pressures in the economy.
  Yes or No?
  
• As a regulator with responsibility for promoting competition in the market Ofcom are content that some CPs (EE/O2) are running their business in such an inefficient manner that they are experiencing cost increases over and above the general level of inflation experienced in the economy?
  Yes or No?
  
  The EE contract price includes:

• Call Termination charges (which have decreased significantly),
• The Network licence (which was paid for several years ago)
• The Handset cost (which was fully incurred by EE before I took out my contract); and
• An element of profit

• Given the above Ofcom believes that RPI applied to the entire cost of my contract is a fair reflection of the cost increases incurred by EE in running my contract in the past 12 months?
  Yes or No?
  
  
  
• Given the statements above supporting question 8 Ofcom believes that the price variation clause is compliant with OFT Group 12 guidance (12.3)
  Yes or No?
  
  For reference - “12.3 A price variation clause is not necessarily fair just because is not discretionary – for example, a right to increase prices to cover increased costs experienced by the supplier. Suppliers are much better able to anticipate and control changes in their own costs than consumers can possibly be. In any case, such a clause is particularly open to abuse, because consumers can have no reasonable certainty that the increases imposed on them actually match net cost increases”
  
  
• Ofcom believes that the pre 23rd January 2014 definition of Material Detriment that I have deduced (Material Detriment = changes that are not to a consumers benefit or neutral on the consumer) by reference to:

• The UTCCRs (Group 10)
• USD 20/22
• Statements by Ofcom on GC 9.6
  Is incorrect?
  Yes or No?
  
  Finally (and not a yes no answer) – you have said that:
  “…our view that EE’s new term does not enable it to raise prices in a way that is likely to be materially detrimental, so changing from the old term to the new one was not likely to be materially detrimental either”

• Can you tell me the criteria and definition of Material Detriment that you have used (in both contexts of the usage in that quote), AND where I can check that definition with regards to regulations and previous Ofcom statements?
  
  The above 11 questions do introduce some new points, but nothing which Ofcom should not have already considered when reaching the conclusions that it has, so as stated before this really should take a very small amount of your time and it should be possible to respond by return.
  
  Regards
  

Mikmonken

Not questioning this bit do we actually now need to address this to Graham Howell as my letter from Lynn effectively told me not to contact them again unless it was a complaint

RandomCurve

Mikmonken wrote: »

Not questioning this bit do we actually now need to address this to Graham Howell as my letter from Lynn effectively told me not to contact them again unless it was a complaint

I've lost count of the times Ofcom have told me that they won't respond to me anymore - but they still do. They clearly have not addressed the concerns raised, and so you clearly have the right to request that they do

RedHeadPeter

Just following up my earlier quick post about my win, these are the words the adjudicator (Stacey Edgar) used:

Conclusion
11. My conclusion on the main issues is that:
a. The claim succeeds.
b. The company changed a term of its contract and imposed a price increase which caused material detriment to the customer.
c. The customer’s contract shall be terminated immediately without the imposition of a cancellation fee.
d. The company shall refund the customer all charges imposed after the original cancellation request on 25th April 2014.
e. The customer is awarded compensation in the amount of £50.00.
f. The company shall provide the customer with his PAC code.
6
Therefore my decision is that the claim succeeds and the company shall terminate the customer’s contract immediately, refund all charges imposed after 25th April 2014, provide the customer with his PAC code and compensation in the amount of £50.00.

It's interesting that the word 'backdated' isn't used - instead it is refund all charges imposed after original cancellation request. It will be interesting to see how EE try to wriggle out of that.

So BIG BIG thank you to Random Curve, without you I would never have started this journey, let alone a successful conclusion.

Now - next question is who to take my business to? 3 is the obvious choice but I tried them before and there was zero reception in my house (3 miles south of Central London!)

Swampsnake

RedHeadPeter wrote: »

Just following up my earlier quick post about my win, these are the words the adjudicator (Stacey Edgar) used:

Conclusion
11. My conclusion on the main issues is that:
a. The claim succeeds.
b. The company changed a term of its contract and imposed a price increase which caused material detriment to the customer.
c. The customer’s contract shall be terminated immediately without the imposition of a cancellation fee.
d. The company shall refund the customer all charges imposed after the original cancellation request on 25th April 2014.
e. The customer is awarded compensation in the amount of £50.00.
f. The company shall provide the customer with his PAC code.
6
Therefore my decision is that the claim succeeds and the company shall terminate the customer’s contract immediately, refund all charges imposed after 25th April 2014, provide the customer with his PAC code and compensation in the amount of £50.00.

It's interesting that the word 'backdated' isn't used - instead it is refund all charges imposed after original cancellation request. It will be interesting to see how EE try to wriggle out of that.

So BIG BIG thank you to Random Curve, without you I would never have started this journey, let alone a successful conclusion.

Now - next question is who to take my business to? 3 is the obvious choice but I tried them before and there was zero reception in my house (3 miles south of Central London!)

I've been looking at 3, as well as Tesco and giffgaff. Tesco will not let you set call forwarding so they are out (at least for me as I need it), giffgaffs data limits on 4g are stupidly low so it only leaves 3.

Like you I have no signal in the house, but talking to the sales rep they can supply a signal booster that plugs into the broadband for free if you are a contract customer and you go through the procedure with their tech support people. I did get one of these from EE but had to pay £25 or so for it, but at least I should get my money back for it on eBay.

At the moment I am diverting my EE number to a 3 payg sim and seeing what the reception is like in my usual haunts...

rockstarzzz

Quick question for anyone who have already gone through with CISAS - do you get someone assigned to the case AFTER EE's response or before? I've been told EE are given till 25th of July to respond but no one was assigned for the case. Should I expect EE to reject, provide a very strong defense and then CISAS to rule against me? Do I need to appeal or do I have to write back after EE's response?

Do we have anything that RC has prepared for you guys earlier or is this generally tailor-made case by case individually?