(solved) UKPC parking invoice - but it's my car park!

FunnyMunny

Hi everyone, I'm new to these forums, long time MSE reader and happy to be here.

Could I please have some advice for the following?

I live in a leasehold flat with private parking spaces and the management company recently hired UK Parking Control Ltd (UKPC) to manage the parking here.

We were given permits to display in our windscreens. The thing wouldn't stick to the windscreen, so I took to just putting it on the dashboard each time I parked at home. However, one night it fell off the dashboard, so they slapped one of their £60 parking charge notices, aka invoice, on my car.

Thing is, this is my car park which I pay for through my service charge, so I have every right to park here. I don't need their authority to park here, permit or no permit. The permit is just to help them identify resident's cars. On top of that, the point is that UKPC actually work for me, to remove the problem of non-residents using our private car park as a free public one and leaving their cars all day.

I wasn't sure how to go about fighting this, so I looked it up on the main MSE website and saw that I had several options. I took the militant one, filling in UKPCs online "appeal" form, saying no way was I paying them, reminding them that they are there to serve the residents, not extort money from us and demanded that they prove losses from my not showing my permit. I told them that if they didn't cancel the ticket immediately I'd look to get them removed from our car park.

I soon got what looks like a form letter, saying they understood my frustration as I'm a resident, but that I had no authority to park there without that stupid permit. On top of that, they actually asked me to return the permit for "investigation". So how am I supposed to park here then?!

I ignored the letter and have now received a 28-day letter from them, with the core of the letter saying:

Under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, you are now required within 28 days (beginning with the day after this notice is given) t either pay the outstanding Parking Charge to us, UK Parking Control Ltd (as creditor) or make a representation to us against the issue of this Parking Charge.

If no payment or representation is received by within 28 days the outstanding debt will be forwarded to a debt recovery agency, at which point an additional charge of £60 will apply in accordance with the terms and conditions of parking.

Payment is required to be made by the driver within 28 days from the date of this Notice.

The letter also shows a picture of the car among various other things.

Now, I've read some of the sticky threads on this part of the forum, which looks to me like I should just wait until the debt recovery agency starts chasing me and at some point during their blizzard of letters, they will either give up or refer me to the court (on instruction from UKPC) where I'd get an LBC letter or similar and would then have to respond.

Apparently, UKPC have never issued a court order either according to what I've read here, which sounds like very good news.

I have no intention of paying this unjust invoice and believe I'll win in court should it come to it, because I'm a resident who doesn't need their authority to park in his own car park, so I'd be grateful for advice on the best way to handle this.

I'll be honest, there's a lot to take in, so I apologize in advance as the information covering my question is probably in those stickies. Note however, that my situation is a little unusual as it's my own car park, so I believe covering this on here will help others too.

4consumerrights

Hi - you seem to have read a couple of the sticky threads already - but the advice is not to wait until debt recovery stages. Appealing to POPLA wins before that stage! see coupon mads sticky threat to Newbies at top of page.

Believe it or not - your situation is not unique to this forum - there have been an increasing frequency of OP's coming with a similar situation to yours (and it's starting to really P**S me off that these parking companies think they have a right to charge people to park in their own spaces) - you can read a number of threads on here already.

However, from what you say - I gather you have bought your flat rather than rented it? I am also assuming that in your lease there is a designated parking space mentioned. There is no legal right for a third party parking company to interfere with with someone's private property.

The management should have given UKPC a detailed list of registration numbers assigned to permit holders to ensure residents don't get issued parking charges.

I would write to your management company stating that UKPC have no legal rights to issue parking charges to you for parking in your space and if they don't instruct UKPC to cancel this charge immediately then you will seek to bring a joint claim for damages against both the management company and UKPC for harassment and tresspass (threaten to withhold paying your maintenance charges - as they are not looking after either the parking facilities properly or the residents interests) Copy this letter to UKPC and suggest they cancel the charge immediately; or issue a POPLA code and face the legal consequences of further action.

You may also be interested to know that residents themselves can form committees (with directors) and take over the management of flats themselves - you should speak to the council or your local CAB for further info regarding this. I also believe that a recent convert and now regular JeanRaffio also does this.

You are right about one thing UKPC do not do court. Also do not send back your original permit, although you can take a photocopy and send that with your letter to UKPC. POPLA also is easy to win with 100% success rate for forum assisted appeals since May.

Coupon-mad

Now, I've read some of the sticky threads on this part of the forum, which
looks to me like I should just wait until the debt recovery agency starts
chasing me and at some point during their blizzard of letters, they will either
give up or refer me to the court (on instruction from UKPC) where I'd get an LBC letter or similar and would then have to respond.

You have read the wrong sticky thread if you are in time to appeal:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822

The_Slithy_Tove

Then there's the nuclear option:
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?377246-UKCPS-liable-for-trespass-

peter_the_piper

Just looked at their website, rubbish. No mention of POPLA in their appeals section, in fact they still mention clamping as an option.
Make sure you get your popla code when your appeal is rejected.

jeanraffio

4consumerrights wrote: »

You may also be interested to know that residents themselves can form committees (with directors) and take over the management of flats themselves - you should speak to the council or your local CAB for further info regarding this. I also believe that a recent convert and now regular JeanRaffio also does this.

Partly true. As a resident I became a director of the Management Company (RMG) that runs the 16 flats in my block. This gives me voting rights and allows me (on behalf of the other residents) to legally change the way that it is run to suit the residents (e.g. no way would I allow a PPC to be involved and they need my vote to make it happen!). RMG promote this approach as a responsible management company. It also allows me access to all finances too.

So, first step, approach your managment company - there will be a designated person in charge of your block and it is these who can change this. A well run MC will be set up as Ltd Co. for your block. A poorly run one won't but they are much easier to remove (it is possible) if you want.

HTH.

FunnyMunny

Thanks for all the advice people, very helpdul. I wish I'd read these forums before beginning my challenge. However, I'm still confident I can win, but it might take a bit more effort.

I had challenged the invoice by replying within around 10 days of receiving the PCN by using the "appeal" form on their website and already identified myself as the driver, hence missed my chance to force them into a Notice to Keeper letter which is easier to challenge. Hence, UKPC are of course replying to me as the driver instead. Note that as I'm parked in my own card park, this is my prime defence against them, so it seems to make sense to identify myself as the driver?

I then received that initial letter "explaining" that I still had to pay the charge, giving me 35 days to pay, ignoring the points in my challenge - looks very much like a form letter. When I didn't respond, they sent me that 28-day letter, which I'm still within the period of.

Looking at the link provided by Coupon-mad (thankyou) it looks like the thing to do now is ask for a POPLA code, since they unhelpfully and unsurprisingly haven't provided one or explained how I'm supposed to use this appeals service.

Now, I'm wondering how I should go about it.

Should I just fill in the online form (eform) simply stating that I'm continuing to dispute the invoice and request a POPLA code? Do I have to elaborate any more on why I'm disputing it? It also makes it much easier for them to pretend that I didn't say what I said in the first instance for the reason below.

In my initial dispute, the eform just emailed an acknowledgement that I'd contacted them, giving the PCN reference number, but without a copy of what I'd written to them. All very handy for them to say that I didn't ask for a code when I fill in the form again, isn't it? I would have no record of exactly what I said unless I saved the text separately on the PC first, which I did in my initial dispute. Their auto response looks like this:

From: noreply @ ukpcappeals.co.uk [I put the spaces in to break the link]
Sent: ***
To: ***
Subject: Appeal Confirmation

Dear ***


Thank you for your email.

UKPC confirm receipt of your email and will aim to respond to you in writing within 21 working days.

Please do not respond directly to this email as it is automatically generated and you will not receive a reply.

Assuring you of our best intentions at all times

EDIT: I initially indicated that there is a reference number in the subject line, but this was incorrect. They don't even give you that with their acknowledgement! I'd added it later in Outlook to make it easier for me to identify the dispute. This is the first time I've ever seen such a deliberately shoddy acknowledgement email and it wouldn't surprise me if it breaches a rule somewhere.

These people really go out of their way to make taking any action other than just paying their ransom demand as difficult and awkward as possible, don't they?


Note the "best intentions" blather. Nice touch.

If I write to them, they give the following PO Box address on their letters:

UK Parking Control Ltd
Appeals
PO Box 1087
Uxbridge
UB8 9UR

Now, if I remember correctly, one can't send tracked letters to these addresses since Royal Mail can't get a signature, hence UKPC could very conveniently say they never received it and I'm out of luck. Checking the Royal Mail website doesn't say anything about this, but I'm sure the post office clerk did.

On the consumeractiongroup forum (thanks again) the following head office address is listed for them:

UK PARKING CONTROL LIMITED
THE MERIDIAN
4 COPTHALL HOUSE STATION SQUARE
COVENTRY
WEST MIDLANDS
CV1 2FL
Company No. 05104383

Which also appears on the bottom of their letters.

Should I send a Special Delivery letter asking for a POPLA code to this address instead so they can't pretend not to have received my letter? Do I just use the eform instead?

Finally, thankyou for the nuclear option The Slithy Tove, but I can see that incurs costs of around £1300 which I then have to get back. I'd also have to know exactly how to draft the court challenge, which sounds like another headache I don't need.

4consumerrights: I "own" a leasehold flat and I do indeed intend to contact the management company about this. Thankyou very much for the tips.

4consumerrights

FunnyMunny,

The above two address will not do you any good I'm afraid as the first is guaranteed to just be a rented mailbox and the second one listed is sadly the old registered address for UKPC (changed in september).

I've penned this letter for you to send to UKPC using current registered office and trading address as on their website and if you read some of my posts regarding UKPC by going into my public profile - you will note that they are a current pet hate of mine!
****************************
UK PARKING CONTROL LTD
The Apex
2 Sheriffs Orchard
COVENTRY
CV13PP


F.A.O. Mr Rupert John Williams, Director


Dear Sir

RE: PCN NO: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Dated xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


With reference to the above parking charge notice and your subsequent demand for payment received on …………….., I would like to remind you that this parking charge was appealed using your on-line appeals service and I received your automated receipt on…………….

As you are aware, the British Parking Association’s Code of Practice, of which UKPC are members, clearly states that no further demands for payment must be made whilst the appeals system is being invoked.

This letter further instructs UK Parking Control that the driver of the vehicle in question actually owns the flat and parking space whereupon you placed your parking charge and that this is considered as harassment.

As property owner, I have not signed any contract with either UKPC or the management agent of the flat authorising you to issue parking charge notices on my vehicle and will challenge this authority through the courts if necessary.

This letter is also to inform you that no further parking charge notices be placed upon my vehicle parked in my allocated parking space.

Should you fail to cancel this charge by return of post, then please feel free to issue a POPLA code and face the legal consequences of any further action.

Yours faithfully


PRINT NAME

CC Unit 29, 1-2 Denham Parade, Oxford Road, Uxbridge, Middlesex UB9 4DZ

HO87

Sorry fm but it isn't entirely clear whether you have challenged/appealed and got a reply to that? If UKPC reject your appeal, regardless of whether you have admitted being the driver, they are obliged to provide a POPLA code. If they have rejected your appeal and not provided a POPLA code then you should write to them immediately (don't bother with a SD letter, PPC's are known to refuse to sign for such letters) send the letter by email and by first class post making sure to send it from a Post Office so you can ask the counter clerk to give you a certificate of posting.

spacey2012

Can I just but in.
What does your lease state about this parking space.
read that first, you may just be able to ignore them 100% and hope they issue a court case for you to counter claim.

If you have leasehold with no out-contracting of parking enforcement , nobody can legally without you express contracted authorisation conduct commerce on your land.
Nor can they enforce parking or act as principle as they have no authority from you to do so.

Check that lease and you may not need to dance around in the POPLA kangaroo court.
You can just tell them to Foxtrot Oscar and stick your own sign up.

4consumerrights

Ditto Spacey - although where parking is given to flats these are normally specifically designated in leases.

***********************************************************

visit https://www.parkingticketappeals.org.uk for a guaranteed service - your parking charge cancelled or paid if POPLA appeal fails. Any private parking charge on any private land BPA or IPC members.