Sinn Fein lord mayor at Belfast Armistice Day ceremony

GlynD

emmett123 wrote: »

from myself

I'd be cautious about removing religion from education. That's the preserve of the RC church and it wouldn't be easy to sway them away from their current policy, which is the main reason why integrated education is lagging behind here in the north.

I'm also unsure of the loyal order issues. If that is an acceptable policy in a united Ireland then why isn't it acceptable at the moment? Of course I'm saying that in the full belief that the flashpoints are being politically motivated by SF. I'd also venture that, as time goes by, the numbers in the loyal orders would diminish in any case and they would become quaint little clubs like the Freemasons. Membership is already savagely down on that of the 70's.

I'm not a member btw and never have been. I disagree with sectarian fraternities.

emmett123

GlynD wrote: »

I'd be cautious about removing religion from education. That's the preserve of the RC church and it wouldn't be easy to sway them away from their current policy, which is the main reason why integrated education is lagging behind here in the north.

I'm also unsure of the loyal order issues. If that is an acceptable policy in a united Ireland then why isn't it acceptable at the moment? Of course I'm saying that in the full belief that the flashpoints are being politically motivated by SF. I'd also venture that, as time goes by, the numbers in the loyal orders would diminish in any case and they would become quaint little clubs like the Freemasons. Membership is already savagely down on that of the 70's.

I'm not a member btw and never have been. I disagree with sectarian fraternities.

do you mean that OO flashpoints only existbecause SF tell the people to be opposed? I think you give SF too much credit. I know in my town SF people stand just behind the rank of the police, both facing into the residents. so at the moment SF actually protect the OO parades (in some places).

GlynD

emmett123 wrote: »

do you mean that OO flashpoints only existbecause SF tell the people to be opposed? I think you give SF too much credit. I know in my town SF people stand just behind the rank of the police, both facing into the residents. so at the moment SF actually protect the OO parades (in some places).

Drumcree is certainly a concoction by Sinn Fein. The parade had passed off peacefully for years but a series of "residents' committees" suddenly emerged to co-ordinate Catholic protest against parades, each fronted by a former IRA man. In 1995 - after widespread civil disorder - Gerry Adams was heard telling a Sinn Fein meeting that "Drumcree didn't happen by accident . . . it took a lot of hard work".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4263701/Who-created-Drumcree.html

Also well voiced on Wikipedia where it says that:

In 1997, Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams told an RTÉ journalist of his party's involvement in the dispute:
Ask any activist in the north, ‘did Drumcree happen by accident?', and he will tell you, ‘no'. Three years of work on the lower Ormeau Road, Portadown and parts of Fermanagh and Newry, Armagh and in Bellaghy and up in Derry. Three years of work went into creating that situation and fair play to those people who put the work in. They are the type of scene changes that we have to focus on and develop and exploit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumcree_conflict three qualified sources are listed for this statement.

With such weight of evidence against Sinn Fein I can only assume this is true and that other flashpoints have been similarly orchestrated, regardless of what the Sinn Fein public face is towards it. In all honesty and sincerity Sinn Fein still appear to function like a Marxist party. All salaries paid to their members have a levy placed on them to increase party funds. The whip is enforced mercilessly. They are infinitely much better at propaganda than any other party ever was, even though you can see right through what they're saying they'll still insist it's the truth and after a while enough people will believe whatever that statement was to give it legs.

In my opinion, if any of the the unionist parties, or better still the main English parties, had the will to operate like Sinn Fein the Troubles would have been over in 1974.

mezza101

marcowil wrote: »

Both Emmett and GlynD should be allowed, along with anyone else who wishes to contribute, to continue their discussion openly and frankly.

I believe that part of the problem in NI is this idea that we shouldnt discuss things becuase "someone" might take offence, or its too controversial. We are never going to move forward without discussion

agree, we need more discussions with the other side, many havent had any real discussion with them'uns from the other side :cool:

GlynD

mezza101 wrote: »

agree, we need more discussions with the other side, many havent had any real discussion with them'uns from the other side :cool:

Yes that's something which needs to be addressed. It's horrible to think that, because of polarisation and segregated education, there are children and even young adults from certain areas who've never met anyone from another faith because of the fear that exists.

I remember, even during the early years of the troubles, when it was possible to go anywhere for a bit of crack and just have fun without anyone caring what church you went to. Obviously that's looking back at it with rose tinted spectacles but it was my experience. Nobody cared about anything more than where the price of the next pint was coming from and if you could manage to get them in before the bar closed at 10.30. Kerrrist do you remember that?

emmett123

GlynD wrote: »

Drumcree is certainly a concoction by Sinn Fein. The parade had passed off peacefully for years but a series of "residents' committees" suddenly emerged to co-ordinate Catholic protest against parades, each fronted by a former IRA man. In 1995 - after widespread civil disorder - Gerry Adams was heard telling a Sinn Fein meeting that "Drumcree didn't happen by accident . . . it took a lot of hard work".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/4263701/Who-created-Drumcree.html

Also well voiced on Wikipedia where it says that:

In 1997, Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams told an RTÉ journalist of his party's involvement in the dispute:
Ask any activist in the north, ‘did Drumcree happen by accident?', and he will tell you, ‘no'. Three years of work on the lower Ormeau Road, Portadown and parts of Fermanagh and Newry, Armagh and in Bellaghy and up in Derry. Three years of work went into creating that situation and fair play to those people who put the work in. They are the type of scene changes that we have to focus on and develop and exploit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumcree_conflict three qualified sources are listed for this statement.

With such weight of evidence against Sinn Fein I can only assume this is true and that other flashpoints have been similarly orchestrated, regardless of what the Sinn Fein public face is towards it. In all honesty and sincerity Sinn Fein still appear to function like a Marxist party. All salaries paid to their members have a levy placed on them to increase party funds. The whip is enforced mercilessly. They are infinitely much better at propaganda than any other party ever was, even though you can see right through what they're saying they'll still insist it's the truth and after a while enough people will believe whatever that statement was to give it legs.

In my opinion, if any of the the unionist parties, or better still the main English parties, had the will to operate like Sinn Fein the Troubles would have been over in 1974.

right? and what?
SF offered leadership to the people in that area, and in return the people of upper Bann voted for a SF MLA, suggesting that people were happy with the leadership the party had provided.
You complain when armed strategy is used, and you complain when a popularly supported peaceful political campaign is used. methinks, you just don't like uppity taigs.

but that is not the same story for all areas, and some manners being put on the OO in the 90s was merely the outworking of nationalist confidence after years of saying nothing, lest it would affect us in our workplace etc, and of course the nationalists in Craigavon could say very little, lest the extra-curricular policing techniques of King Rat, controlled by The Committee were brought to bear. Don't think that Nationalists had some sort of grudging acceptance of Loyal Orders until Sf showed up. In much the same way that the black people in the southern states were not too vocal in the glory of days of the KKK.

and really your criticism of SF makes no difference to me, as I'm not a Shinner.

mezza101

GlynD wrote: »

Yes that's something which needs to be addressed. It's horrible to think that, because of polarisation and segregated education, there are children and even young adults from certain areas who've never met anyone from another faith because of the fear that exists.

I remember, even during the early years of the troubles, when it was possible to go anywhere for a bit of crack and just have fun without anyone caring what church you went to. Obviously that's looking back at it with rose tinted spectacles but it was my experience. Nobody cared about anything more than where the price of the next pint was coming from and if you could manage to get them in before the bar closed at 10.30. Kerrrist do you remember that?

its not so much about never having met some one from the other side, most have but couldnt have any real discussion, the internet gives people a chance to bypass their politicians and talk directly to someone from the other side..............

GlynD

emmett123 wrote: »

right? and what?
SF offered leadership to the people in that area, and in return the people of upper Bann voted for a SF MLA, suggesting that people were happy with the leadership the party had provided.
You complain when armed strategy is used, and you complain when a popularly supported peaceful political campaign is used. methinks, you just don't like uppity taigs.

but that is not the same story for all areas, and some manners being put on the OO in the 90s was merely the outworking of nationalist confidence after years of saying nothing, lest it would affect us in our workplace etc, and of course the nationalists in Craigavon could say very little, lest the extra-curricular policing techniques of King Rat, controlled by The Committee were brought to bear. Don't think that Nationalists had some sort of grudging acceptance of Loyal Orders until Sf showed up. In much the same way that the black people in the southern states were not too vocal in the glory of days of the KKK.

and really your criticism of SF makes no difference to me, as I'm not a Shinner.

You've gone for the wrong end of the stick. For a start I would never use the pejorative term "Taig" (unless I was making a joke). I find it just as reprehensible as all the other wee names each side has for the other.

I haven't complained about anything. I merely made factual discussion points

Nor did I opine on the views of any Roman Catholics regarding the loyal orders.

You need to be aware that quoting blacks and the KKK is a piece of Sinn Fein rhetoric, long disproved, as was the comparison made by Gerry the Liar over apartheid.

I've made no inference to your membership or support for any organisation either so why are you suggesting I have? What I did was to back up my claim that Sinn Fein had orchestrated many, if not all, of the OO flashpoints in NI. I gave you several reputable sources and in the case of Wikipedia that was backed up by three quotes from other written sources.

Can we not just have the discussion without all the accusations please? I promise you that an exchange of views without acrimony is much more pleasurable that you making accusations and me denying them.

GlynD

mezza101 wrote: »

its not so much about never having met some one from the other side, most have but couldnt have any real discussion, the internet gives people a chance to bypass their politicians and talk directly to someone from the other side..............

Yes I agree. I also practice what I preach however. In real life I do not discriminate against anyone because of their creed or colour. I've always lived that way so it's no hardship for me.