Shortage of engineers is getting worse

gadgetmind

prowla wrote: »

The last govenment encouraged companies to import cheap labour

Companies need little encouragement, but what incentives do you think were offered?

which drove people away from the disciplines, on the basis they would be undercut.

Surely if you fear being undercut, you skill up, big time?

The government and companies viewed skilled workers as a drain on business instead of an asset.

I don't know what the government's view was/is, but companies have always valued skilled employees, but perhaps "skilled" isn't sufficiently clearly defined?

Johnandabby

As a Chartered Engineer I do seem to spend a lot of my time explaining why they should spend more money employing me than some other company claiming to be able to do it cheaper. And then having to explain 12 months later why the cheaper solution doesn't work and why they will have to spend twice as much to put it right.

personally I think it's a lack of knowledge on the consumer/customer side of what they are comparing, and this is due to the dilution of the term engineer and poor publicity from professional bodies and institutions of the benefits of employing proper engineers.

gadgetmind

Johnandabby wrote: »

personally I think it's a lack of knowledge on the consumer/customer side of what they are comparing, and this is due to the dilution of the term engineer

In my field, consumers don't really need to know that engineers design their smart phone chips. car engine management units, or digital TV receivers.

However, it would be nice if they didn't call the guy who comes to fish the ring pulls and fag butts out of their dishwasher drain an engineer, as he/she clearly isn't!

prowla

gadgetmind wrote: »

Companies need little encouragement, but what incentives do you think were offered?

NuLab actively encouraged the importing of cheap skilled workers, and turned a blind eye to the abuse of intra-company tansfers & student visas; you might look here for some background: http://www.ukibc.com/ukibc/about_ukibc/board/patricia_hewitt.aspx, but it still persists: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11686231

The NuLab regime put in place plans to offshore the DWP admin, http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/news_and_events/news_centre/index.cfm/id/5C7A9E5C-E078-48E8-83CF698B33727B8E, which were reversed in 2011.

gadgetmind wrote: »

Surely if you fear being undercut, you skill up, big time?

All the skills won't help if someone can come here and work for half the money, or less.

HP had a world-leading support organization in the UK, and chose to downskill and offshore. The result was that good staff left and the quality of the product was vastly diminished, to the point that customers left.

gadgetmind wrote: »

I don't know what the government's view was/is, but companies have always valued skilled employees, but perhaps "skilled" isn't sufficiently clearly defined?

Though this is from the US (HP), it clearly shows that they did not value their skilled employees, and reflects the UK operation too; http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Hewlett-Packard-RVW238933.htm

BillJones

gadgetmind wrote: »

However, let me add that we really do find a few (and only a few!) seriously bright UK graduates and we snap them up. This now costs us around £30kpa in year one as they are in short supply, but it shows that the jobs and money are there for those prepared to put in the work.

It's still the case in finance, too. We start graduates on around £40k, and then spend a long time and a lot of effort teaching them the business, both in classrooms and on the job.

Like in your case, though, there just aren't enough of the very best emerging domestically, so we recruit heavily from overseas.

buglawton

gadgetmind wrote: »

If a computer scientists who can actually program is regarded as the "cream" in the UK, then we really do have problems!

Employers don't have the skills or time to provide remedial eduction to those who didn't have the ability and/or drive to gain the required skills and knowledge while at university.

Computer Science isn't a subject you can bluff your way through and neither are our interviews. You need to understand the subject and be able to write software to solve problems, often difficult ones, and we test that people can do this.

Fortunately, most of those who make it to interview are up to this, but there simply aren't enough applications, hence us pulling in people from across the EU.

When I started out programming I'd been in a non programming job for 5 years. The smallish company that employed me did no clever tests, they took a chance based on my tech qualifications. Once I started the job, my new workmates helped me through the learning curve. There was a very modular and focused programming environment and tight leadership. I had 10 productive years that way as a programmer doing some incredibly sophisticated engineering applications.

Kayalana99

Hmm lack of engineers but my friend can't get work in the UK...he was offered a job in bloody Japan or something though but he couldn't just pack up his life and move abroad for a job.

AlwaysPondering

Because school kids have no idea what an engineer does. And until the media start showing truthfully what we do, rather than the normal bloke in a boiler suit and hard hat, I doubt that will change. I know that there are many activities carried out in schools by engineer's to show what we do, as I was involved in helping them for a number of years.

Pay is ok in my experience, however where it falls down is in career progression. If you want to go places, don't go into engineering. I work for a large company 25k+ people, and those who have gone into the non engineering/manufacturing areas were climbing the ladder from day one - they got a qualification and got a pay increase. In engineering you got a further qualification, well done carry on. And I think this is where the issue with pay comes in. The higher up you go the more you earn. For engineers here, the chance of getting higher is so small that income is always going to be lower.

Then there are the management structures, my manager has 13 people working for him, which is normal here in engineering/manufacturing, yet in almost all other areas of the business each manager has about 5. Once that is added up from shop/office floor to CEO, it's clear all other areas have more management - management have higher pay..... what were we saying about pay?


All the engineers I work with are generally just fed up with being an engineer. I, having been one since graduation some 12 years ago, see no real way to progress my career, so am seriously wondering about finding something completely different to do for work. I know I'm not alone. Yet the company can't find enough engineers, and most the ones they have are unhappy.

It's a funny old world.

BillJones

Kayalana99 wrote: »

Hmm lack of engineers but my friend can't get work in the UK...he was offered a job in bloody Japan or something though but he couldn't just pack up his life and move abroad for a job.

A first or 2:1 in engineering from a top university?

What field is he looking for work in?

Pennywise

Johnandabby wrote: »

As a Chartered Engineer I do seem to spend a lot of my time explaining why they should spend more money employing me than some other company claiming to be able to do it cheaper. And then having to explain 12 months later why the cheaper solution doesn't work and why they will have to spend twice as much to put it right.

personally I think it's a lack of knowledge on the consumer/customer side of what they are comparing, and this is due to the dilution of the term engineer and poor publicity from professional bodies and institutions of the benefits of employing proper engineers.

That's true in every trade and profession though isn't it? I could write the same post as a qualified accountant - I see some true horror stories from people who've tried to cut costs by engaging an unqualified accountant or doing it themselves. I have a good friend who is a builder (a proper one) and says the same as a lot of his traditional work is now done by "odd job" merchants who leave a trail of distruction behind them.

It is the classic case of double standards - we all want the cheapest option ourselves (whether an employer or consumer) but we still want to be valued and paid a proper wage ourselves!