Shortage of engineers is getting worse

dave4545454

gadgetmind wrote: »

"UK recovery constrained by lack of engineers"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24779016

"Warning over shortage of engineering graduates"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-19760351

... and "the UK already relies on "inward migration" to fill skilled jobs in key sectors such as oil and gas extraction, aerospace, and computer, electronic and optical engineering."

Sadly we've had another graduate from Spain start working for us and we're flying another over this week (at our expense) for an interview. Thanks to this immigration, we are keeping our heads above water, but why do we consistently fail to educate enough good engineers in the UK?

What makes it worse is when you read about high graduate unemployment in the UK due to us producing too many non-STEM graduates.

Always found the opposite to be true. I have the first class honours engineering degree but there are very few if any engineering opportunities to work in that field. I know lots of other unemployed people with engineering degrees too.

It's the lack of jobs in this country that is the real problem, not the lack of skills.

gadgetmind

adindas wrote: »

Computer science and IT graduate used to be in shortage a few years a go, but not anymore nowadays.

Those are two very different subjects, and I don't tend to recruit graduates for IT jobs as I'm not sure a degree is necessary. Anyway, for CS, we do need degrees and if there isn't a shortage, then why are companies finding it so hard to fill positions?

dave4545454 wrote: »

It's the lack of jobs in this country that is the real problem, not the lack of skills.

We struggle to find good graduates and when we get them, we have to fight to retain them as replacing an experienced engineer is very difficult.

This is why we prefer to recruit UK-educated engineers, rather than having to scour the world, because we do find retention rates lower as people from (say) Greece will often be back there like a shot if they can find work there.

How to tally our experience and that of other engineering companies of finding it hard to find good people, with some graduates saying they are struggling to find work, I really don't know.

jamesmorgan

gadgetmind wrote: »

How to tally our experience and that of other engineering companies of finding it hard to find good people, with some graduates saying they are struggling to find work, I really don't know.

I suspect that the issue may be due to many companies looking for square pegs to fit square holes. When I started in IT (admittedly almost 30 years ago) we rarely recruited Computer Science graduates for programming roles. This was partially due to the fact that CS was still in its infancy as a degree subject, but also that we recognised that it was often better to recruit strong graduates from any discipline and train them. After 6 months it was impossible to tell who had a CS degree. We often found the best programmers were those who had languages or maths degrees. Today, many companies restrict their search to only CS graduates and then often to those graduates whose degree specialities closely match the job being offered. Companies want results quickly and are not prepared to put the same investment into training that was common-place.

In parallel with this there has been a huge shift into off-shore programming. It is increasingly difficult for graduates to find programming roles. The typical roles undertaken now in the UK are analysis, design and testing. Historically these roles have been undertaken by more experienced staff. This creates a shortage of entry level roles leading to difficulties in many graduates finding their first job.

The final point to note is Engineering is a huge area of different subjects. Even though overall unemployment across Engineering graduates is relatively high, there will be some subject areas with severe skills shortages. It is not that helpful to talk about skills shortages in Engineering, but to more specific in exactly which skill areas are in short supply today.

malc_b

The solution is obvious but I doubt it will ever happen. Skilled people go to the money and respect, so we need to pay more and give more respect. An engineer to the man in the street is someone who turns up to fix your washing machine. No disrespect to washing machine repairmen but when government/media say we have an engineering skill shortage they don't mean washing machine repairmen.

We should, like USA, be talking about professional engineers and have it the norm that we use the term professional engineers or the equivalent, to differentiate, and accord that the respect and salary similar to bank manager, head teacher, doctor, etc.. In UK we do have Chartered which is similar but you don't have to be chartered to practice engineering, may be you should.

Most companies go for the cheapest labour costs which IMO is part of the reason we see so many product recalls. Doing a job right requires skill and requires you pay over average. And of course it saves you money in the long term but when has UK ever considered the long term. We just patch our roads when leaving it just means it costs far more to repair down the line (a stitch in time saves 9 to quote the old saw).

Looking the USA this company advises that offering 20% extra gets you 30% more applicants and those extra are 2-3 times more productive. This is what UK should be doing to attracted the best people into engineering. And note they say graduate starting salary is $100k/$120k, (£60k/£75k). That is an attractive wage!

gadgetmind

We also employ graduate engineers in the US, and there are some salary hotspots, but $100k is decidedly toppy!

There is also little job security in the US and most are on "employment at will" because companies pay over the odds to staff up for a big project and then dump everyone at the end.

OTOH we like people to work for us for many years, ideally decades, so maybe that does mean that we recruit more carefully.

gadgetmind

jamesmorgan wrote: »

After 6 months it was impossible to tell who had a CS degree. We often found the best programmers were those who had languages or maths degrees.

I guess maybe computers got more complex as it would take us a couple of years to teach someone the basics and without these they would drown.

Even what constitutes the basics keeps changing.

We're still finding ourselves having to explain to universities that single core computers are a historical curiosity and that yes, they do have to teach about parallel programming, critical sections, semaphores, caches, memory coherency, and the like.

Linton

gadgetmind wrote: »

I guess maybe computers got more complex as it would take us a couple of years to teach someone the basics and without these they would drown.

Even what constitutes the basics keeps changing.

We're still finding ourselves having to explain to universities that single core computers are a historical curiosity and that yes, they do have to teach about parallel programming, critical sections, semaphores, caches, memory coherency, and the like.

Is there any mileage in going for maths graduates from the major universities? They perhaps would be more able to understand complex concepts than the average and you are likely to give better education in the realities of real time parallel programming than students would get from a course which covers a wide range of other topics from the theory of Turing machines to language design. I believe the City went for top maths graduates rather than economics or accounting ones for equivalent reasons.

jacques_chirac

dave4545454 wrote: »

Always found the opposite to be true. I have the first class honours engineering degree but there are very few if any engineering opportunities to work in that field. I know lots of other unemployed people with engineering degrees too.

It's the lack of jobs in this country that is the real problem, not the lack of skills.

I would expect your knowledge and skills to be out of date, given that you claim to have been on the dole for twenty years.

Prothet_of_Doom

Linton wrote: »

A max of £55-£60K could be normal for a senior technical job in industry, I dont know, but it would be pretty low for someone in fianance. Where do you want the best people to work?

Where you wrote normal, I'd replace that with top end. (very much upper decile)

I assume it's not a normal distribution, as no graduate would expect or accept less than £25K (unless they are very stupid)

Most of the permanently employed engineers that I know, (not freelance), are maxing out at about 55K. Typically after 10 to 15 years of experience they are hitting £40K to £45K with graduate starting at £28K to £32K.

Typically Freelancers are seeing £25 to £40 per hour (ltd company rates) with the odd one or two seeing a little more if they have a specialist skill, like erm "noise". But there is no career structure, training, pension, loyalty, union representation etc.

Prothet_of_Doom

gadgetmind wrote: »

There is also little job security in the US and most are on "employment at will" because companies pay over the odds to staff up for a big project and then dump everyone at the end.

.

Sounds like Freelancing to me :rotfl: