Brother borrowed 20k without consent

In_Debt_Bet

NANANINANOONOO wrote: »

It has been dads intention to tell all eventually but depending on outcome of the investigation I think he is now afraid he will not be believed - his confidence is truely in tatters

I am so sorry for all that you and your poor father have been put through. I'm pretty sure that every person who has commented on this thread does not doubt the terrible wrong that has been done to your Dad and is firmly on his side, would it help him at all to know this and perhaps give him some faith that he would be believed although it may take those that know him and your brother a little while for the truth to sink in.

Best wishes
Bet

NANANINANOONOO

Weird_Nev wrote: »

The case doesn't have to pass 'All reasonable doubt' at this stage, all it has to have is a 'reasonable prospect of conviction'. It just has to be worthy of its day in court.

I do apologise for wading in, I haven't read the whole thread but I have the gist of it.

Cases such as this are notoriously difficult to investigate and especially to prove. They often fall into the bracket of 'everyone knows who has done what, but proving that is just a leap too far'.

The process is:

Police gather all possible evidence, including arrests, interviews, searches, bank records etc if justified/applicable. They build a case file which is then Passed to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). It's important to note that charging decisions in complex cases like this are out of the police's hands. The CPS then review the evidence and make a decision. They apply the 'Full code test' in most cases, which means that all evidence is in hand, there is no expectation of more evidence coming to light. They review the evidence as it stands and think 'Given what we have, and that we are not going to get more, is there a realistic chance of successful prosecution in this case?'.

Things like 'well obviously no sane 80 year old would give all their life savings to one child' are conjecture and NOT evidence. It may make perfect sense, it may be the truth, but it cannot be proven or presented as fact in court.

If the case boils down to: Child says dad gave all the money/assets willingly, Dad says he didn't or was tricked... and there is NOTHING to support the assertion of fraud: No forged signatures, no evidence of duress, no CCTV it's virtually impossible to prove, and you are looking at a lengthy and complex court case with no certainty of the outcome. Please also note that financially, even a conviction can mean very little in terms of recouping your fathers loss. The court may impose a fine or compensation, but that often goes unpaid and is in itself a drawn out and painful process.

I am not absolving the Police of their duty to do a thorough and diligent job in investigating, only trying to shed light on the process itself and the many pitfalls it faces. It's sad, because it often prevents justice being done. I used to work investigating offences in the capacity of elderly and vulnerable people, looking into fraud issues like this: One sibling comes to the Police sure that the other has emptied Mums bank accounts. Mum has little or no memory of it, or says 'I think I gave them some money' or is perhaps scared or ashamed that their own child has stolen their money. It's incredibly difficult to unravel when you have a family dynamic where you don't know who you can trust, and an elderly person who may not have the greatest handle on their finances. Most of those investigations fail at the first hurdle, because after looking at the evidence (which is often historical - decades or more sometimes, so bang goes any CCTV or paper records even). there is simply too litle to go on... apart from one sibing drives an Audi and Dad and the other one are destitute. When we did have a hook to get into, belive you me we threw everything into it. When you see a few people 'get away with it' it makes you want to go to the ends of the earth if needs be to bring someone to court if you can.

So it's a horrible situation, and one in which it's very hard to win justice. It divides families and puts a value on an elderly persons wellbeing. I have nothing but contempt for those who act in this way towards their parents. It's dispicable. But it's also very, very hard to prove beyond all reasonable doubt.


Edit to Add: The IPCC is really not the way forwards in this instance unless you feel that the investigation has been woefully mismanaged or inadequate: in fact even in that case the local forces complains division is a better bet. However, if you're 'relatively' happy with the Police action thus far, but the case gets knocked back by the CPS, then there is a process by which a Police Inspector (Normally a Detective Inspector in Fraud cases) can review the case and the CPS assessment of it. If he feels there is value in it (and I promise they are impartial and really want the conviction if the evidence is even half there) then they can request that it be reviewed by a more senior CPS lawyer. However, the CPS, in my experience and despite the bad press, by and large make fair and accountable decisions. If they don't proceed on a case, it's usually because there just isn't the evidence there. No amount of wishing it was changes that fact.

Thank you so very much for this very detailed explanation and for taking the trouble to respond. The IPCC edit you have added is also pretty much what I had anticipated about the procedures. This really does cover everything about this type of scenario with clarity and is sadly how I fear things seem to be panning out for dad. I hope this post may better explain to others who have kindly been following this thread & are awaiting the final outcome :0(

AndyBSG

I have couple of questions you may be able to clear up.

- The police are suggesting they do not have enough evidence to get a conviction 'beyond reasonable doubt' yet, from what you have posted, that seems to hinge on the lack of CCTV. How did your brother lay hands on the money? I assume there were internet bank transfers which should have IP addresses logged against them along with dates/times. Can your father not prove that was not from his PC and that he was not at the same address as the PC these transactions were made from when they were made?

- Separate from the criminal case, if the Police really can't proceed, in a civil case the burden of proof is decided on 'the balance of probabilities' so that is why civil cases often result in a victory where criminal cases don't. Loathe as I am to suggest it, some of these 'no win, no fee' solicitors may consider the case.

- Finally, if neither of those turn up results are you then planning on confronting your brother as there will be no case to endanger? At the very least you can make the rest of the family and any friends aware of your brothers loathsome actions so he can see how much he enjoys his ill gotten gains when everyone knows reviles and detests him.

NANANINANOONOO

AndyBSG wrote: »

I have couple of questions you may be able to clear up.

- The police are suggesting they do not have enough evidence to get a conviction 'beyond reasonable doubt' yet, from what you have posted, that seems to hinge on the lack of CCTV. How did your brother lay hands on the money? I assume there were internet bank transfers which should have IP addresses logged against them along with dates/times. Can your father not prove that was not from his PC and that he was not at the same address as the PC these transactions were made from when they were made?

- Separate from the criminal case, if the Police really can't proceed, in a civil case the burden of proof is decided on 'the balance of probabilities' so that is why civil cases often result in a victory where criminal cases don't. Loathe as I am to suggest it, some of these 'no win, no fee' solicitors may consider the case.

- Finally, if neither of those turn up results are you then planning on confronting your brother as there will be no case to endanger? At the very least you can make the rest of the family and any friends aware of your brothers loathsome actions so he can see how much he enjoys his ill gotten gains when everyone knows reviles and detests him.

It was all bank transfers via internet leaving a very clear & obviously suspicious trail on paper but the internet is very unsafe and no way of identifying who is sitting behind the PC irrespective of where it was even if it was possible to identify whose PC it was & where its located.

Not sure about how the no win no fee solicitors works maybe someone on here might know. The problem might be that even if dad was sure to win case if brother is found to have no funds they will get no fee. We have no way of discovering what my brothers actual current financial situation is or if other debtors are already chasing him :0(

Making other family members aware would at least give some satisfaction perhaps but to be honest whilst initially people may be shocked and appalled for those who it does not directly effect it will soon become old news & like dads fears he is 85 so others may not even care & will soon forget :0(

BigAunty

NANANINANOONOO wrote: »

I have been amazed at how common this type of thing is. Sadly as with most things people are oblivious until it touches someone we know. .

A similar thing happened in my family when my alcoholic grandad allowed access of his current account to his alcoholic son to pay bills - my Uncle wiped out his savings. My grandad was broken hearted, it wasn't likely to be considered a criminal matter as my grandad gave him permission to make withdrawals and decided to be philosophical about the 11k that quickly vanished, considering it an early inheritance. After that, my uncle fled and maintained a narrative about how cruel his dad was. He keeps a low profile because he got into criminal behaviour, too. Now he doesn't know both his parents are now dead as he didn't keep in touch and the solictor isn't having much luck tracing him to complete probate.

On the housing and benefit forums, we often come across stories of the financial exploitation of vulnerable people, often as part of a domestic violence situation. For example, there is currently someone on the Housing forum who was forced to take ownership of his father's property to avoid his creditors whose dad also refuses to pay towards any expenses in the property ("as its your property now") while simultaneously visiting to abuse family members whenever he likes "as its my property after all and you can't stop me".

BigAunty

NANANINANOONOO wrote: »

My brothers property is nice and surely must have some equity & he does have other assets he could sell like his expensive vehicle & other items. I dont understand why he hasnt sold his home & assets to pay his debts (& dad) and start again if he is in financial trouble - but we have no idea what his financial situation is.

.

There is a way of identifying CCJs held in people's names at their property addresses which may pick up if he has those.

However, on the question of why he doesn't sell his home to pay his debts is that he probably doesn't have to. Many debts can get written off or paid back at token amounts so there is probably no real motivation on your brother's part to honour them. Look at a debt charity website - there are many ways of sidestepping debts or paying them back in tiny sums.

As long as the debt that is secured on the property is against the deeds, he probably doesn't consider it a 'proper' debt and besides, by selling the property, the creditor gets first dibs on repayment so the way to avoid repaying it is by continuing to own it.

Finally, he is in complete denial about pilfering your dad's money - paying it back admits accepting full responsibility for it so he will continue to see it as a gift or loan that merely lacks a proper repayment schedule.

Step into his shoes - he has a lifestyle that he believes he deserves and is entitled to by any means. Debts are just pesky details in the background that won't derail his right to a high standard of living. He loves his home, he deserves his home. Where would he go anyway? Why would he become a scummy tenant and pay his own rent when he can live in a lavish property and keep up with the Jones's? Why would he let people know he has financial problems when he doesn't believe he has any? This is why he is not incentivised to accept or address his true obligations.

itsanne

I've just read this start to finish :eek::eek:. What a horrendous situation you and your father are in.

Hopefully the prosecution will go ahead, but if it doesn't please take Weird Nev's excellent advice on how to proceed.

I feel quite strongly that you should tell the rest of the family what your brother has done. If you are concerned about being believed, include some of your most damning evidence and tell them about the police investigation. At worst they could believe your brother's claim that your father gave him all his money, leaving himself penniless, though it's difficult to envisage that happening. Even if they believed your brother and thought your father had done that they would not be able to condone your brother leaving him penniless. As things stand, your father is the one who feels uncomfortable about the rest of the family: telling them would place the discomfort squarely where it belongs, with your brother.

At least in the midst of this nightmare your father has you to care and stand up for him, so he's a lucky man in that respect. That's more important for his well being than the return of all the money could ever be. My best wishes go to you both.


Edited to add read up to post 323.

patanne

Did the police get nothing from the sale of the shares then? I was hoping that that may turn out to be traceable by a forged signature. If that could be proved it would help convince the CPS that the charge is viable.

NANANINANOONOO

Well the news we had been dreading has arrived and there is not enough to proceed. The police are extremely appologetic and have assured dad it is not that they do not believe him.

My poor father is absolutely devastated, he is totally distraught and thinks this MUST mean that everybody believes my brother and not him :0(

I have no words...

Caroline_a

Oh my goodness, that is just dreadful. I'm afraid that if it was me I would be putting something in the paper where my brother lived.... just awful!

Not that it will help at all, but (((((HUGS)))) to you and your dad