Brother borrowed 20k without consent

RuthnJasper

NANANINANOONOO wrote: »

Sadly there is no good news to report and it looks like for my brother crime might even pay.

It would basically appear with no CCTV there may not be enough 'definitive proof' for the police to prosecute. This does not mean the team do not believe or cannot clearly see exactly what has obviously happened to dad but despite all the damning evidence it simply may not be enough for CPS to proceed - it cannot hinge on dads word against his son (who has claimed dad gave him permission to take all his money), its irrelevant how clear it looks & despite taped call & paper trail there has to be 'definitive proof' so the offender absolutely cannot get off on a technicality - breach of trust is not an important enough offence for police to risk the cost of a failed hearing.

So...still waiting on CPS decision but if police cannot proceed with it as crime dad will be devastated. His only option will be to accept he has lost everything for trusting a loved one...his security, self respect and his family gone with no recourse!

Dad could sue his son & whilst this would definately get results it is very costly and dad clearly he has no funds - you will recall dad was left with £50 to his name after his son stole a total of £62,000 in savings shares etc. from him. At 85 with no property or assets dad has no way of finding enough for the solicitors fees & unfortunately I am not in position to pay fees for him either, there is no help like legal aid available to prosecute someone :0(

This infuriates me. How can the Police possibly fail to proceed with it as a crime?! Why would anyone "willingly hand everything over" to someone and leave themselves with only £50?! What about the documentation? The recording? I SO want this to be properly dealt with - for you and your dad.

Don't forget that there is also the Police Complaints Commission if you aren't happy with their conclusions - http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/

Hoping for a better outcome. xx

themull1

I hope that you tell all the family whats been going on.

themull1

Is legal aid available or a free meeting with a solicitor? sometimes thats included in your house insurance, or it used to be, see CAB as well. Never let it lie, i wouldn't.

dancingfairy

Sorry to her things aren't going well. What a mess.
I would caution against your dad suing your brother. On the one hand your dad would at least feel that he is in the right (which he would be) but on the other hand he doesn't appear to have the cash to pursue this, and if he wins he still wouldn't have the money back. It's not clear that your brother has any money to repay your dad so your dad could loose out further by wracking up legal bills. You could download the landregistry details for your brothers house which will give you an idea of whether there are secured loans on there. If there was any equity that may be the only hope of getting the money back but that would require your brother selling the house or your dad attempting to force a sale (more money).
Only thing I can think of is to go via home insurance legal cover or get a newspaper or charity to pick it up for you or try and find a solicitor who would do it for you somehow
Regards
df

NANANINANOONOO

tommytynan123 wrote: »

Nice to hear you're still in one piece and from the tone of your responses you seem reasonably ''in charge''. Some points I picked up from other replies:

If you/Dad can't contact him then someone else can ! If you were in Cornwall then I would happily wade in. IF the case is dropped then so is the barrier to you/Dad/someone going to his home/work - so be ready.

Is there still no definite reason for his requirement for the cash. It may be, for eg, it was needed to save a business and whilst that doesn't alter the facts about theft that scenario could have been used by brother to explain and reconcile. The fact he hasn't indicates the cash was for personal use.

I think you either wait for the police outcome and if dropped then down come the barriers or get a third party (friend / relative) to do the ''donkey work''. The third party could write to workplaces on the grounds of ''unable to get a response at home address'' That would get a response particularly if any of them worked in a financial capacity.
I also think that ALL family members should know the situation so start spreading the word. (Ensure all letters are recorded)

Keep smiling

Thank you for your comments tommytynan - these are things we have considered & if the case is dropped I believe dad will have little alternative but to be 'ready' with these options & to inform & enlist the help of other wider family members to assist in a third party capacity. Writing to workplaces marked with ''unable to get a response at home address'' seems quite a good idea

NANANINANOONOO

RuthnJasper wrote: »

This infuriates me. How can the Police possibly fail to proceed with it as a crime?! Why would anyone "willingly hand everything over" to someone and leave themselves with only £50?! What about the documentation? The recording? I SO want this to be properly dealt with - for you and your dad.

Don't forget that there is also the Police Complaints Commission if you aren't happy with their conclusions - http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/

Hoping for a better outcome. xx

Its the 'beyond all reasonable doubt' police policy that is the cause of the cases not proceeding. The way I understand it an investigating officer puts forward a case with all the evidence he has gleaned & someone else looks over it & makes decision whether they believe there will be a fool proof conviction - any doubt whatsoever of acheiving a conviction & a case is rejected. Dont know if people can complain over an unfair policy but I will definately check out that link - thank you.

NANANINANOONOO

themull1 wrote: »

I hope that you tell all the family whats been going on.

It has been dads intention to tell all eventually but depending on outcome of the investigation I think he is now afraid he will not be believed - his confidence is truely in tatters

NANANINANOONOO

themull1 wrote: »

Is legal aid available or a free meeting with a solicitor? sometimes thats included in your house insurance, or it used to be, see CAB as well. Never let it lie, i wouldn't.

There is no legal aid help available for people to prosecute only for defence cases (in other words dad has to pay up front for everything and my brother would get legal aid to defend himself). CAB's used to have links to solicitors who gave a free half hour meeting but it seems these session solicitors no longer exist. Dad has no money to pay solicitor fees & he only lodges where he lives so has no home insurance. His only hope might be to find a charity who may assist him as someone else on here suggested but I have no idea how or who he could approach!

NANANINANOONOO

dancingfairy wrote: »

Sorry to her things aren't going well. What a mess.
I would caution against your dad suing your brother. On the one hand your dad would at least feel that he is in the right (which he would be) but on the other hand he doesn't appear to have the cash to pursue this, and if he wins he still wouldn't have the money back. It's not clear that your brother has any money to repay your dad so your dad could loose out further by wracking up legal bills. You could download the landregistry details for your brothers house which will give you an idea of whether there are secured loans on there. If there was any equity that may be the only hope of getting the money back but that would require your brother selling the house or your dad attempting to force a sale (more money).
Only thing I can think of is to go via home insurance legal cover or get a newspaper or charity to pick it up for you or try and find a solicitor who would do it for you somehow
Regards
df

We have checked out land registry and there is a charge against his property but no idea how much for. My brothers property is nice and surely must have some equity & he does have other assets he could sell like his expensive vehicle & other items. I dont understand why he hasnt sold his home & assets to pay his debts (& dad) and start again if he is in financial trouble - but we have no idea what his financial situation is.

Thanks for your helpful suggestions.

Weird_Nev

RuthnJasper wrote: »

This infuriates me. How can the Police possibly fail to proceed with it as a crime?! Why would anyone "willingly hand everything over" to someone and leave themselves with only £50?! What about the documentation? The recording? I SO want this to be properly dealt with - for you and your dad.

Don't forget that there is also the Police Complaints Commission if you aren't happy with their conclusions - http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/

Hoping for a better outcome. xx

NANANINANOONOO wrote: »

Its the 'beyond all reasonable doubt' police policy that is the cause of the cases not proceeding. The way I understand it an investigating officer puts forward a case with all the evidence he has gleaned & someone else looks over it & makes decision whether they believe there will be a fool proof conviction - any doubt whatsoever of acheiving a conviction & a case is rejected. Dont know if people can complain over an unfair policy but I will definately check out that link - thank you.

The case doesn't have to pass 'All reasonable doubt' at this stage, all it has to have is a 'reasonable prospect of conviction'. It just has to be worthy of its day in court.

I do apologise for wading in, I haven't read the whole thread but I have the gist of it.

Cases such as this are notoriously difficult to investigate and especially to prove. They often fall into the bracket of 'everyone knows who has done what, but proving that is just a leap too far'.

The process is:

Police gather all possible evidence, including arrests, interviews, searches, bank records etc if justified/applicable. They build a case file which is then Passed to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). It's important to note that charging decisions in complex cases like this are out of the police's hands. The CPS then review the evidence and make a decision. They apply the 'Full code test' in most cases, which means that all evidence is in hand, there is no expectation of more evidence coming to light. They review the evidence as it stands and think 'Given what we have, and that we are not going to get more, is there a realistic chance of successful prosecution in this case?'.

Things like 'well obviously no sane 80 year old would give all their life savings to one child' are conjecture and NOT evidence. It may make perfect sense, it may be the truth, but it cannot be proven or presented as fact in court.

If the case boils down to: Child says dad gave all the money/assets willingly, Dad says he didn't or was tricked... and there is NOTHING to support the assertion of fraud: No forged signatures, no evidence of duress, no CCTV it's virtually impossible to prove, and you are looking at a lengthy and complex court case with no certainty of the outcome. Please also note that financially, even a conviction can mean very little in terms of recouping your fathers loss. The court may impose a fine or compensation, but that often goes unpaid and is in itself a drawn out and painful process.

I am not absolving the Police of their duty to do a thorough and diligent job in investigating, only trying to shed light on the process itself and the many pitfalls it faces. It's sad, because it often prevents justice being done. I used to work investigating offences in the capacity of elderly and vulnerable people, looking into fraud issues like this: One sibling comes to the Police sure that the other has emptied Mums bank accounts. Mum has little or no memory of it, or says 'I think I gave them some money' or is perhaps scared or ashamed that their own child has stolen their money. It's incredibly difficult to unravel when you have a family dynamic where you don't know who you can trust, and an elderly person who may not have the greatest handle on their finances. Most of those investigations fail at the first hurdle, because after looking at the evidence (which is often historical - decades or more sometimes, so bang goes any CCTV or paper records even). there is simply too litle to go on... apart from one sibing drives an Audi and Dad and the other one are destitute. When we did have a hook to get into, belive you me we threw everything into it. When you see a few people 'get away with it' it makes you want to go to the ends of the earth if needs be to bring someone to court if you can.

So it's a horrible situation, and one in which it's very hard to win justice. It divides families and puts a value on an elderly persons wellbeing. I have nothing but contempt for those who act in this way towards their parents. It's dispicable. But it's also very, very hard to prove beyond all reasonable doubt.


Edit to Add: The IPCC is really not the way forwards in this instance unless you feel that the investigation has been woefully mismanaged or inadequate: in fact even in that case the local forces complains division is a better bet. However, if you're 'relatively' happy with the Police action thus far, but the case gets knocked back by the CPS, then there is a process by which a Police Inspector (Normally a Detective Inspector in Fraud cases) can review the case and the CPS assessment of it. If he feels there is value in it (and I promise they are impartial and really want the conviction if the evidence is even half there) then they can request that it be reviewed by a more senior CPS lawyer. However, the CPS, in my experience and despite the bad press, by and large make fair and accountable decisions. If they don't proceed on a case, it's usually because there just isn't the evidence there. No amount of wishing it was changes that fact.