Mr and Mrs K's New Journey to a Debt Free Life.

AlexLK

maman wrote: »

Strangely enough I completely agree with you that living off benefits should not be a lifestyle choice but a safety net. What I object to is the fact that there are huge numbers of working people on benefits. In many cases that's because the minimum wage is so low that the government has to give tax credits to make it up to a living wage and rented housing is so unaffordable that the taxpayer has to make that up with housing benefit.

Wages are an interesting discussion, as a business one wants a skilled pool of staff for the least amount of cost. However, that pool of staff wants to give as little as possible for the most amount of money. Somewhere along the lines supply and demand for a particular job determines it's "worth" in monetary terms. Or this is how I see it. Therefore, we end up with the current scenario in lower paid occupations; companies paying as little as they can get away with legally but still filling positions. Good business sense deems this acceptable even if it could be deemed morally wrong if the aforementioned company is pulling in high profits.

Sometimes this diary does make me question things I thought were morally decent and make me wonder how the world would work if it were less capitalist and served each of it's citizens. In this instance I wonder if there is a better solution than Tax Credits for these working people in low paying occupations.

maman wrote: »

Ironically, you are not versed in social housing but your see BTL as an investment. The reason that market is so buoyant is because there isn't enough social housing thanks to Mrs T. I'm in the South East too and it is commonplace for people to be unable to save enough for a deposit although, as you say, the mortgage payments would be cheaper than rents.

Honestly, I see BTL as a good investment as it has done very well for my parents, no other reason, really.

Here I do think there is much less of a problem with housing.

maman wrote: »

Of course it wasn't Dave's choice to be sent to Eton but it does mean he's lived in a somewhat rarefied atmosphere so that he doesn't understand what it's like for ordinary people. I'd have thought you'd understand that as while you're not an old Etonian you do seem to find it hard to comprehend that people live on far less money than you have.

Like hohum said, these pages have made an interesting read. I do enjoy a reasoned discussion!:)

I fully admit I find it hard to comprehend that people live on far less money than myself. However, I was referring to how David Cameron relates to the electorate as a whole, not just those at the bottom of society of which I am sure he doesn't have a real understanding.

gien wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head Maman with the tax credit system. If employers were forced to pay a living wage and pay taxes then the government wouldn't need to keep families afloat by paying out tax credits. OUr taxes are basically subsidising the wage bill of companies who then try and pay as little tax as possible.

That said, I do know that the tax credit system was really played by some people, by reducing or increasing their working hours to take into account of Tax credit assessment periods, which I think it just dishonest (some of these folks were in my family and friends!)

Selling off council houses to tenants is not necessarily a bad idea. What is a bad idea is to NOT replace the housing stock as it's sold off, thus beggaring the next generation who has no or little access to social rent controlled housing.

I think one reason for the success of UKIP and other extreme groups across Europe, has been the very rapid expansion of the EU over recent years. ALthough it has been for good social and economic reasons (to help 'less well off countries') the result has been quite large population shifts that resident populations' have had difficulty in managing and absorbing. Add to that the general financial crisis and a downward pressure on wages so that everyone except the boss is a looser and it's a fairly toxic situation.

Sorry Alex, your thread has moved off topic, I'll get my coat!

:rotfl: I'm more than happy for my thread to move off topic for the moment as I'm not doing well on the finances front, although I have managed a NSD today.

With regards to the EU, as a member of the public I would like to be given much more information and get the referendum Cameron is promising us. Currently, I do not feel I know enough to make the right decision, though my initial thoughts are "out" whilst remaining a member of the EFTA to keep our trading links with Europe as Iceland and Norway.

barbarawright wrote: »

And there is the crux of all your problems - you are obsessed with keeping up with the Joneses (who seem to be your parents)

If you were constantly told what a disappointment you were, I'm sure you'd want to at least "keep up" with "the Joneses" too.

barbarawright

AlexLK wrote: »

Wages are an interesting discussion, as a business one wants a skilled pool of staff for the least amount of cost. However, that pool of staff wants to give as little as possible for the most amount of money. Somewhere along the lines supply and demand for a particular job determines it's "worth" in monetary terms. Or this is how I see it. Therefore, we end up with the current scenario in lower paid occupations; companies paying as little as they can get away with legally but still filling positions. Good business sense deems this acceptable even if it could be deemed morally wrong if the aforementioned company is pulling in high profits.

Sometimes this diary does make me question things I thought were morally decent and make me wonder how the world would work if it were less capitalist and served each of it's citizens. In this instance I wonder if there is a better solution than Tax Credits for these working people in low paying occupations.



Honestly, I see BTL as a good investment as it has done very well for my parents, no other reason, really.

Here I do think there is much less of a problem with housing.



I fully admit I find it hard to comprehend that people live on far less money than myself. However, I was referring to how David Cameron relates to the electorate as a whole, not just those at the bottom of society of which I am sure he doesn't have a real understanding.



:rotfl: I'm more than happy for my thread to move off topic for the moment as I'm not doing well on the finances front, although I have managed a NSD today.

With regards to the EU, as a member of the public I would like to be given much more information and get the referendum Cameron is promising us. Currently, I do not feel I know enough to make the right decision, though my initial thoughts are "out" whilst remaining a member of the EFTA to keep our trading links with Europe as Iceland and Norway.



If you were constantly told what a disappointment you were, I'm sure you'd want to at least "keep up" with "the Joneses" too.

No. I want to be happy on my own terms rather than worrying about whether other people have more or better possessions than me. Plus, I'm a grown-up and financially independent from my parents (though I earn considerably less than your wife's 'distinctly average salary'). You don't want to be independent from the people who, apparently, find you a disappointment.

heartbreak_star

It took me a long time to not care about possessions and the like, I must admit. I think I stopped caring about "things" when my dad got ill - I worked all hours to go out all the time and buy clothes and games and other stuff.

Then dad got ill, and I realised stuff doesn't matter. People matter. That was when my mantra of "function over style" came into play.

HBS x

slowlyfading

As someone who spent the afternoon yesterday at the funeral of a friend of ours, who died age 25 and then at the wake with all of his family, it made me think about what I consider important.

As someone who is also a disappointment to my parents, I've decided that I'm not going to let them rule my life anymore. I have a lovely little home with my husband, bought with a deposit we worked and saved hard for, I have two gorgeous cats who are very happy so long as they've got food, a bed and some cuddles now and again. We (me and DH) will never earn as much as my parents combined, because we do different jobs to them, but that doesn't bother me either. I don't need a lot to make me happy; I love just spending the evening with DH and the cats, watching a film snuggled up on the sofa.

Life is too short to feel constantly like you're not doing enough. I'm determined to not live my life like that any longer. Yesterday further cemented my beliefs about life; time passes far too quickly and you never know when your time is up. You need to spend it with the people you love, and all the good stuff in between is just a bonus.

AlexLK

barbarawright wrote: »

No. I want to be happy on my own terms rather than worrying about whether other people have more or better possessions than me. Plus, I'm a grown-up and financially independent from my parents (though I earn considerably less than your wife's 'distinctly average salary'). You don't want to be independent from the people who, apparently, find you a disappointment.

I'm sure it would be very nice to be in your position.

heartbreak_star wrote: »

It took me a long time to not care about possessions and the like, I must admit. I think I stopped caring about "things" when my dad got ill - I worked all hours to go out all the time and buy clothes and games and other stuff.

Then dad got ill, and I realised stuff doesn't matter. People matter. That was when my mantra of "function over style" came into play.

HBS x

HBS: You strike me as a good person who deserves happiness. I do not care for possessions quite so much as I once did but still own things that mean an awful lot to me.

slowlyfading wrote: »

As someone who spent the afternoon yesterday at the funeral of a friend of ours, who died age 25 and then at the wake with all of his family, it made me think about what I consider important.

As someone who is also a disappointment to my parents, I've decided that I'm not going to let them rule my life anymore. I have a lovely little home with my husband, bought with a deposit we worked and saved hard for, I have two gorgeous cats who are very happy so long as they've got food, a bed and some cuddles now and again. We (me and DH) will never earn as much as my parents combined, because we do different jobs to them, but that doesn't bother me either. I don't need a lot to make me happy; I love just spending the evening with DH and the cats, watching a film snuggled up on the sofa.

Life is too short to feel constantly like you're not doing enough. I'm determined to not live my life like that any longer. Yesterday further cemented my beliefs about life; time passes far too quickly and you never know when your time is up. You need to spend it with the people you love, and all the good stuff in between is just a bonus.

I'm sorry to hear of your untimely and sad loss, slowlyfading.

Unfortunately, I am not self-reliant or strong enough to denounce my upbringing and family ties.

LondonGal

One thing striking me as I read this, and I believe I made the same error myself earlier in the thread, is how incredibly judgmental most seem to be.

I have been through the feeling a failure to my parents, I've been through being cut off from my family as they cannot cope with a disability I have, I've been through losing everything due to this disability. This led to me going through a long period of bitterness where I was inclined to lash out at people, sometimes rightly, sometimes not. I was very judgmental and then I was diagnosed with a further disability which has helped me (it's still VERY early days) to start to see things in a very different life.

Tolerance is what I'm trying to practice now. I've gone back to my family and explained there is much they don't know and I'd like a chance to tell them. At present they don't want to know, but they emphasised 'maybe in the future'. That's fine, there's no rush.

There were people (not on here) who had been less than pleasant to me. I realised that it is they who have issues more than me given their behaviour. I have become tolerant by refusing to let them get to me at all and ceasing to fight. They can have the day, I don't mind. It is actually irrelevant to me now.

Do I regret losing my family? Of course - I don't want to be independent from them or give them up. Do I value possessions? Yes, I value certain possessions hugely. They are not always worth anything to anyone else, but are priceless to me because of who they belonged to. I'm not materialistic - there is a difference to my mind.

What I'm trying to say is would this not be better if we could all try to be a little more tolerant of others' views? We may not agree with them, but it's harsh to judge on very little evidence. Some of the comments here have been very harsh indeed. Of course everyone is entitled to their own feelings and to express them. HOW they express them is another matter altogether, and I for one would like to see a little more tolerance being exercised.

Some will look back at previous posts of mine and see a lack of tolerance. This view is quite new to me and is for a reason which is not particularly pleasant as involves, as I said, a disability which will be with me for life and may lead to some very difficult situations. I hope, if it does, I'll be treated with the same tolerance I'm trying to afford people now.

Very few on this forum are deliberately unkind in my experience. Perhaps a slightly more careful choice of words would reap dividends?

Luckystepho

I have been reading this thread with interest and really agree with what LondonGal says. I do get where you are coming from Alex as although not from a wealthy family I did attend a private school. I am currently working in a job whilst not badly paid is not particularly great either and is one which needs no qualifications.

Therefore I feel that I have underachieved and that this schooling has maybe been wasted- although my Mum and Dad have never expressed disappointment in my achievements. (My stepfather though takes great delight in pointing this out at regular intervals!!)

I have seen you make great progress and rapid shifts in attitude to debt etc and if anything just wish you could be a little kinder on yourself and value yourself more as you have so much to give.

LondonGal- I do understand as I was diagnosed with the same disability 4 years ago and it does answer a lot of questions I had about myself and the way I interact with others.

heartbreak_star

AlexLK wrote: »

HBS: You strike me as a good person who deserves happiness. I do not care for possessions quite so much as I once did but still own things that mean an awful lot to me.



Unfortunately, I am not self-reliant or strong enough to denounce my upbringing and family ties.

Ah thanks Alex - I do try really hard to be the best person I can be I still have some meaningful possessions - but they aren't expensive... one of them is a rock :rotfl:

Nobody's asking you to denounce your upbringing and family ties. Just be an independent adult.

Here's a quote that helps me whenever I feel small:

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us.

Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine as children do. It's not just in some of us; it is in everyone.

And as we let our own lights shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others. " - Marianne Williamson

HBS x

heartbreak_star

Also, I remembered where at least some of my ideas about prep schools and the like came from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Poets_Society



HBS x

gien

Luckystepho, the opinions of stepfathers really don't count! - ignore him!!

And I really like what Londongal is saying. We need more compassion and tolerance in this hard world.