Mr and Mrs K's New Journey to a Debt Free Life.

littlegreenparrot

Ugh, please don't get me started on right to buy.
That policy, a historical failure to supply, and the ridiculous encouragement of 2nd home owners/private landlords are some of the reasons why we cannot afford a house of our own.
As a couple of professionals in our 30's it shouldn't be so far beyond our reach.

I think as with many things political views depend on which side of the fence your on. Thatcher's policies left mine and many other families behind, I well remember the jubilation and hope when Labour got in.

Anyway, well done on progress made Alex. It is always important to recognise how far someone has come. I have noticed there are now very few sweeping, judgemental statements - you seem to now recognise you cannot make assumptions based on what you see

I agree the political debate is good (even if not with your politics) it is much preferable to apathy.

AlexLK

maman wrote: »

I do agree that the media has a profound effect on the politics of the country. I heard a phone in on the radio this morning where the theme was 'sick of Nick'. OK they attempted balanced views but the whole purpose seemed to be to fuel the calls to replace him. However we live in a very media orientated world, that's not going to change, so public perception is everything regardless of the reality of polices and politicians. You just have to see the way Milliband was ridiculed for eating a bacon sandwich somewhat inelegantly during the recent campaign to realise that.

The media are all very biased towards their own agendas, as are the politicians and one could say the electorate too. Therefore, there will never be one party to suit all. Nor do I think how someone eats a bacon sandwich should really affect voting. Frankly, why that is "news" in the first place, I do not know.

I think in some ways Nick Clegg has ended up getting a bit of a bad deal, he went into government with the Conservatives meaning many of his policies would never see the light of day and therefore displease the people who voted for the party he represents. Whilst that's how I see it, I was in a very bad place in 2010 and do not really recall what exactly happened.

maman wrote: »

I really can't agree that Labour was responsible for 'bringing the country to its knees'. I'm amazed that the Tories have got away with chanting that mantra daily for the past four years. Yes, Labour made some mistakes but who brought the European and American economies to their respective knees? To quote Gordon Gekko 'Greed is Good' that's why we're in the current mess. And what infuriates me most of all is that while Tories conserve their own standards of living they make everyone else pay. Austerity isn't affecting Dave and his mates but it is affecting people with no jobs or on minimum wage or those who have below inflation (if any) pay rises on an already 'fairly average' salary or he sick and disabled. The gap between the rich and poor is at it's widest for 50 years or more.

We're still suffering from Thatcher's policies. The crazy notion of 'right to buy' decimating the social housing stock has put us where we are today. I don't have a huge problem with people being allowed to buy their council homes but at market prices and the money raised being ploughed back into building more which Thatcher didn't allow. So instead the taxpayer puts Housing Benefits straight into the pockets of private landlords!

I could go on. I just hate inequality but that's enough tub thumping for one afternoon!:D

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on Labour - it seems to me they come into government and spend far too much on the public sector and in welfare benefits. The welfare state should be a safety net to keep people off the streets not a "lifestyle choice". Frankly, it should be uncomfortable to live on government handouts, family or not.

With regards to David Cameron, I don't think he's got everything right but he seems sensible, polite and articulate. I do not see why he is ridiculed for being an old Etonian as no child chooses the school which they attend, nor do I see how that stops him from understanding the electorate. The "call me Dave" stuff was all a bit silly, admitted but I think he's got over that now he is in office.

Social housing is a topic I am not well versed in. However, I do not see why people with council houses should get a discount to buy them either.

AlexLK

littlegreenparrot wrote: »

Ugh, please don't get me started on right to buy.
That policy, a historical failure to supply, and the ridiculous encouragement of 2nd home owners/private landlords are some of the reasons why we cannot afford a house of our own.
As a couple of professionals in our 30's it shouldn't be so far beyond our reach.

I think as with many things political views depend on which side of the fence your on. Thatcher's policies left mine and many other families behind, I well remember the jubilation and hope when Labour got in.

Anyway, well done on progress made Alex. It is always important to recognise how far someone has come. I have noticed there are now very few sweeping, judgemental statements - you seem to now recognise you cannot make assumptions based on what you see

I agree the political debate is good (even if not with your politics) it is much preferable to apathy.

I could be missing out on something here but I do not see how the right for people to buy council houses meant the encouragement of 2nd home owners? Unless you are talking about the 2nd home being a BTL? If that is the case it is not a "home" but an investment. I presume you perhaps live in the south if you cannot afford a house of your own? I know up here it is cheaper to have a mortgage than to rent a house of similar value in almost all cases.

Having been only a child through the Thatcher years, I cannot really make a judgement though my parents did well under her time as PM.

Thanks, I am trying to see more than one side to the argument these days. I'm afraid I used to be far too quick to judge others.

hohum

VJsmum wrote: »

I understand, I am not from your area. I lived in the "affluent" south east at that time, but worried, along with my mother, how we were going to be fed, warmed and clothed. I was between 14 and 18 years old.

It is one reason why, even though I am probably better off than Alex, I don't spend like him . That fear of poverty never leaves you, once you have experienced it.

The last few pages have been an interesting read!

I think you're absolutely right in that experience of poverty never really does leave you. There's a reason there was a make do and mend generation, and I'm sure it's that a lot had memories of the Great Depression. I also think that knowing you have a safety net does for some people allow for different decisions to be made. it certainly does for me.

I was born to very young parents who were able to keep us clothed, happy and fed but also we didn't have a lot of stuff. I've put myself in situations where I have experienced not having enough money to get to work or buy food. It is pretty burned into my brain and the last episode was enough to make me decide enough was enough.

However, as a friend diplomatically put it, if things really did go absolutely t*ts up...say I lost my job, or we had to move out of accommodation...I could 'go home'. What she meant was, you know that your family are able to provide a safety net if it all goes wrong. And not everyone has that luxury.

It's a different kind of skill (and I do think living frugally is a skill no matter what the reasons for it) to live frugally if actually at the back of your mind, you always have the thought that you don't have to. You might be a whole lot better off if you did live frugally but you don't have to. I certainly find that I am great at living on nothing, it's more handling the something I am finding more tricky as I start my new way of looking at finances!

and while there's a satisfaction in paying off debt, when you are in Alex's situation (and mine to an extent) it does feel more like a choice eg there's no exterior motivation pushing you into it. Whether it actually is or not is another matter.

littlegreenparrot

The right to buy scheme is people being allowed to buy their council houses at a discount. This has meant that the stock of social housing available has dramatically reduced.

Many people bought those homes and subsequently sold them at a massive profit, so it reduces housing available who require it. It also leads to more competition at the lowest end of the market - so pushing prices up. The failure to build enough houses every year to meet demand has exacerbated the problem.

2nd home owners are not required to pay council tax on their 2nd home, (at least that used to be the case) which has a dramatic effect on the budget for councils who have a large proportion in their area (Cotswolds for example) and a subsequent effect on local services. They also push up prices, as they also increase competition. Private landlords also increase that competition pressure and therefore prices.
This is what I mean by it depending what side of the fence you are. To you a BTL is a sensible investment. To me it is an extra pressure on an already under supplied housing market. I just want a house, I don't care about other people's investment opportunities!

Yes, I'm in the south east. The issue is not really paying a mortgage, it would probably be less than rent, it is raising a deposit in the first instance. This year I will finish paying a loan that was taken out to get into a first rented flat. There was no other option, but that and rent has meant very little disposable income for saving since then.

Apologies for the off topic rant. It makes me very angry that I can't live in the beautiful area I grew up in because of 2nd home owners and those who sell up in London and move out for a taste of the good life. Many of them do not actually participate or contribute to the local economy. One recent complaint involved noise from the church bells, having moved in next door to the church!

heartbreak_star

Agreed. My OH only managed to get a foot on the ladder because he got a sizeable deposit from his parents, and if I hadn't moved in when I did he might have had to sell up. Help to Buy is just going to cause a massive "bubble", IMO.

HBS x

maman

AlexLK wrote: »

I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on Labour - it seems to me they come into government and spend far too much on the public sector and in welfare benefits. The welfare state should be a safety net to keep people off the streets not a "lifestyle choice". Frankly, it should be uncomfortable to live on government handouts, family or not.

With regards to David Cameron, I don't think he's got everything right but he seems sensible, polite and articulate. I do not see why he is ridiculed for being an old Etonian as no child chooses the school which they attend, nor do I see how that stops him from understanding the electorate. The "call me Dave" stuff was all a bit silly, admitted but I think he's got over that now he is in office.

Social housing is a topic I am not well versed in. However, I do not see why people with council houses should get a discount to buy them either.

Strangely enough I completely agree with you that living off benefits should not be a lifestyle choice but a safety net. What I object to is the fact that there are huge numbers of working people on benefits. In many cases that's because the minimum wage is so low that the government has to give tax credits to make it up to a living wage and rented housing is so unaffordable that the taxpayer has to make that up with housing benefit.


Ironically, you are not versed in social housing but your see BTL as an investment. The reason that market is so buoyant is because there isn't enough social housing thanks to Mrs T. I'm in the South East too and it is commonplace for people to be unable to save enough for a deposit although, as you say, the mortgage payments would be cheaper than rents.


Of course it wasn't Dave's choice to be sent to Eton but it does mean he's lived in a somewhat rarefied atmosphere so that he doesn't understand what it's like for ordinary people. I'd have thought you'd understand that as while you're not an old Etonian you do seem to find it hard to comprehend that people live on far less money than you have.


Like hohum said, these pages have made an interesting read. I do enjoy a reasoned discussion!:)

gien

I think you've hit the nail on the head Maman with the tax credit system. If employers were forced to pay a living wage and pay taxes then the government wouldn't need to keep families afloat by paying out tax credits. OUr taxes are basically subsidising the wage bill of companies who then try and pay as little tax as possible.

That said, I do know that the tax credit system was really played by some people, by reducing or increasing their working hours to take into account of Tax credit assessment periods, which I think it just dishonest (some of these folks were in my family and friends!)

Selling off council houses to tenants is not necessarily a bad idea. What is a bad idea is to NOT replace the housing stock as it's sold off, thus beggaring the next generation who has no or little access to social rent controlled housing.

I think one reason for the success of UKIP and other extreme groups across Europe, has been the very rapid expansion of the EU over recent years. ALthough it has been for good social and economic reasons (to help 'less well off countries') the result has been quite large population shifts that resident populations' have had difficulty in managing and absorbing. Add to that the general financial crisis and a downward pressure on wages so that everyone except the boss is a looser and it's a fairly toxic situation.

Sorry Alex, your thread has moved off topic, I'll get my coat!

barbarawright

AlexLK wrote: »

I was not measuring against some 'national average', just against my own perceptions of what constituted an average salary.



Clearly, the circles I operate in are different to yours for I do consider my wife's salary to be "average" or the comment would not have been made.

And there is the crux of all your problems - you are obsessed with keeping up with the Joneses (who seem to be your parents)

AlexLK

hohum wrote: »

The last few pages have been an interesting read!

I think you're absolutely right in that experience of poverty never really does leave you. There's a reason there was a make do and mend generation, and I'm sure it's that a lot had memories of the Great Depression. I also think that knowing you have a safety net does for some people allow for different decisions to be made. it certainly does for me.

I was born to very young parents who were able to keep us clothed, happy and fed but also we didn't have a lot of stuff. I've put myself in situations where I have experienced not having enough money to get to work or buy food. It is pretty burned into my brain and the last episode was enough to make me decide enough was enough.

However, as a friend diplomatically put it, if things really did go absolutely t*ts up...say I lost my job, or we had to move out of accommodation...I could 'go home'. What she meant was, you know that your family are able to provide a safety net if it all goes wrong. And not everyone has that luxury.

It's a different kind of skill (and I do think living frugally is a skill no matter what the reasons for it) to live frugally if actually at the back of your mind, you always have the thought that you don't have to. You might be a whole lot better off if you did live frugally but you don't have to. I certainly find that I am great at living on nothing, it's more handling the something I am finding more tricky as I start my new way of looking at finances!

and while there's a satisfaction in paying off debt, when you are in Alex's situation (and mine to an extent) it does feel more like a choice eg there's no exterior motivation pushing you into it. Whether it actually is or not is another matter.

hohum: Thank you for this post. I suppose in a lot of ways I am very fortunate, though I do not see it very often. I do not believe I have experienced "poverty", nor do I wish to. Admitted, if I ever did experience having so little money I couldn't eat I would likely become much more careful with it from there on in but I don't see that ever happening to me (fortunately).

littlegreenparrot wrote: »

The right to buy scheme is people being allowed to buy their council houses at a discount. This has meant that the stock of social housing available has dramatically reduced.

Many people bought those homes and subsequently sold them at a massive profit, so it reduces housing available who require it. It also leads to more competition at the lowest end of the market - so pushing prices up. The failure to build enough houses every year to meet demand has exacerbated the problem.

2nd home owners are not required to pay council tax on their 2nd home, (at least that used to be the case) which has a dramatic effect on the budget for councils who have a large proportion in their area (Cotswolds for example) and a subsequent effect on local services. They also push up prices, as they also increase competition. Private landlords also increase that competition pressure and therefore prices.
This is what I mean by it depending what side of the fence you are. To you a BTL is a sensible investment. To me it is an extra pressure on an already under supplied housing market. I just want a house, I don't care about other people's investment opportunities!

Yes, I'm in the south east. The issue is not really paying a mortgage, it would probably be less than rent, it is raising a deposit in the first instance. This year I will finish paying a loan that was taken out to get into a first rented flat. There was no other option, but that and rent has meant very little disposable income for saving since then.

Apologies for the off topic rant. It makes me very angry that I can't live in the beautiful area I grew up in because of 2nd home owners and those who sell up in London and move out for a taste of the good life. Many of them do not actually participate or contribute to the local economy. One recent complaint involved noise from the church bells, having moved in next door to the church!

Thank you for your point of view. It is an interesting one to consider, especially our different outlooks on BTLs. I took the second homes thing to mean people bought the council houses as second homes, sorry I got the wrong end of the stick.

heartbreak_star wrote: »

Agreed. My OH only managed to get a foot on the ladder because he got a sizeable deposit from his parents, and if I hadn't moved in when I did he might have had to sell up. Help to Buy is just going to cause a massive "bubble", IMO.

HBS x

I do not know enough about "Help to Buy" to comment. Not appearing as knowing an awful lot today.