MSE News: Did you know 0844 numbers can cost double 0845 ones? Don't get fleeced by p

Ypaymore

bestyman wrote: »

Giff gaff mobile offers free calls to all 0800 numbers.

05/08 Freephone Numbers are not a problem if you have inclusive 01/02/03 minutes as their are numerous access numbers you can use to call them. Or you can call them from a landline. .

084/087 are the arm and a leg ones.:eek:

The cheapest Payg tariff I have seen for 0844/0845 is 8p a minute with Tesco Lite. http://phone-shop.tesco.com/tesco-mobile/help-and-support/call-charges-payg-litetariff.aspx who however for some reason charge 20p to call a 0843 number.

Ian01

zerog wrote: »

So when 0844 and 0871 numbers become inclusive which they may do eventually,...

Quite the reverse actually.

0845 and 0870 numbers lost their pricing link with "local rate" and "national rate" in 2004. It's a pretence that these are "cheap" calls. They are expensive from mobiles and they are not inclusive on all landline networks.

BT has to keep up the pretence that 0845 numbers are a similar price to a "local rate" call so that people keep on calling them. While BT is currently not allowed to make profit on 084 and 087 call origination, BT remains the largest terminator of 0845 calls, and makes substantial money from that.

0845 numbers are revenue share numbers that impose a 2p/min Service Charge on callers, and that will continue to be the case.

0870 numbers will also return to that state next year, with a Service Charge around 10p/min.

0843, 0844, 0871 and 0872 numbers have always been revenue share numbers. They impose a Service Charge on callers (084: up to 7p/min; 087: up to 13p/min) and have never had any link with local or national pricing. That situation will continue to be the case.

Ofcom wish to see the Service Charge declared by all users of 084 and 087 numbers. This is the "unbundled tariff" system.

BIS wish to see numbers with a Service Charge no longer used for customer service. The "Consumer Rights Directive" makes that possible.

Originally, both of these measures were to be adopted at the same time. Unfortunately, Ofcom's timetable has slipped by many months. BIS cannot adjust their timetable; the provisions of the Consumer Rights Directive must come into force in June 2014.

Consumer pressure or just plain business sense will see 084 and 087 numbers being dropped by more than those that the legislation directly covers.

03 numbers are cheap when called from landlines and from mobiles. They are charged at the same rate as a call to an 01 or 02 number. Calls to 03 numbers also qualify for call discounts, such as the inclusive call packages found on mobiles and landlines.

Calls to 084 and 087 numbers are expensive, especially when called from mobiles. Not only do you pay your telephone provider for the call, you're also paying money to the business you are calling.

If you haven't familiarised yourself with the provisions of the Consumer Rights Directive and with Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs", you have several big shocks coming in the next couple of years...

shamrock_girl

I was very interested to read this recent post about the 0844 no's, haven't had too much dealings with them since I had a previous Doctor's surgery that had one in 2010. This was even worse if on way to&from work&had to call on my mobile!! I have to admit that I haven't been as clued up as I should be as a jewellery shopping channel I use, has an 0844 no. that says it 5p per minute, I was puzzled that very short calls came up as 20p I have now realised after reading this article that you are charged a 15p "connection fee", I had contacted the shopping channel as I thought they were charging me too much, they insisted it was 5p a minute and as it's automated and am barely on there a minute, I was puzzled. Is it BT/your phone line provider that charge the connection fee and why??? I now try to buy online, another jewellery channel I use have an 0845 no., so can use on evening/weekends free calls package I have and otherwise use 18185. That leads me to the really puzzling question, does anyone know why you can't use 0844 with 18185&other phone call override companies? Thank you.

Ian01

Those are really good questions. The answers aren't all that simple.

shamrock_girl wrote: »

Is it BT/your phone line provider that charge the connection fee and why???

You'll need some background before the connection fee can be discussed. When you call an 0843 or 0844 number, there is a hidden Service Charge within the call price. The amount varies from 1p to 7p/min depending on exactly which number was called. For 0871 and 0872 numbers it can be up to 13p/min.

The Service Charge is collected from you by your phone company and passed on to the phone company that owns the 084 or 087 number. They take a small part for themselves, as does the agent that sold the 0844 number. Another 2p/min pays for the technical non-geographic features such as call-queueing and the forwarding of the call to the real phone line of the business you are calling.

If there's any money left over, a "revenue share" scheme pays out some money to the business you called. Often this is used by them to pay towards the lease of switchboard equipment that came as a package deal: new phone system with non-geographic number. This leads businesses to often claim "we don't profit from this number" (at best, that's being a tad economical with the truth).

The typical sales ploy when these systems are pitched to businesses is to say that callers are paying "a local rate call" (not true) and the system is "self-funding" (yeah, you heard right). This is a euphemism for "the callers are paying for it through stealth charges within the call price".

Now to a real example.

You make a call to an 084 number with a Service Charge of 7p/min. If you did this from your mobile, your phone network would add on their huge profit margin and charge you anything from 20p to 41p/min for the call. These prices are unregulated and are excessively high in comparison to the Service Charge and their other costs.

If you call from a BT line, you'll pay very much less. BT prices for 084 and 087 numbers are regulated by the "NTS Condition". This says that BT must not profit from call origination. There's another problem for BT. That call with a Service Charge of 7p/min has a regulated retail price of 5.1p/min (inc. VAT).

To be clear, BT are not allowed to charge more than 5.1p/min for the call, and have to pass on 7p/min to the business you are calling. The shortfall is made up by adding a 15p connection fee. This fee has more than doubled in price since 2009.

Some other landline networks copy BT prices. Others, such as Virgin Media do not and the same call as detailed above costs 12p/min plus 16p connection fee.

Whenever a business attempts to state how much it will cost to call their 084 or 087 number, they always quote the regulated low BT rates and they almost always forget to tell you about the connection fee. Most people get a shock when the bill arrives, especially if they have made a lot of short calls or if they have used a mobile phone.

Often will shortly publish draft legislation that, when implemented, will make these call prices transparent.

Users of 084 and 087 numbers will be required to declare the Service Charge every time their telephone number is advertised. This will reveal how much "premium" you are paying the company you are calling.

No longer will you see "calls cost 5p/min from BT, other networks may charge more". Instead you'll see "Calls incur a 7p/min Service Charge. Your phone network will add their Access Charge".

Connection fees will be scrapped. Your phone network will instead declare their Access Charge. It will be a per-minute rate. This will reveal how much mark-up your phone company is adding. Mobile phone companies are unlikely to be able to justify the up to 39p/min rate they currently add on.

shamrock_girl wrote: »

I now try to buy online, another jewellery channel I use have an 0845 no., so can use on evening/weekends free calls package I have and otherwise use 18185.

0845 numbers have a Service Charge around 2p or 3p/min. This is enough to cover the business costs of running the number, but rarely enough for a "revenue share" out-payment. The business often has the number running at no cost to them.

0845 numbers were originally charged by BT the same as calling a local 01 or 02 number, the "local rate". In 2004, the price difference between local and national calls was scrapped and people were moved on to call packages with a certain amount of inclusive calls to 01 and 02 numbers nationwide. These callers no longer pay a fee for each 01 or 02 call. This left 0845 numbers as more expensive, as they were still charged.

In 2009, rather than charge the expected 2p or 3p/min for calling 0845 numbers, BT decided to fund the Service Charge from the monthly package fee that everyone pays and make 0845 numbers inclusive too. They did this as they believed that Ofcom were soon to suspend the Service Charge on 0845 numbers. Ofcom didn't go ahead with that plan.

Several other networks copied this, but they are effectively losing money on these calls.

Many businesses still use 0845 numbers and most of them probably believe they are cheap to call. Indeed you can still see many businesses imploring you to call their 0845 "local rate" (sic) number even though "local rate" hasn't applied since 2004.

Calls to 0845 numbers from mobiles are very expensive, usually between 20p and 41p/min. This is far in excess of the 2p/min Service Charge and the costs of handling the call. The reality for the majority of callers is that 0845 is no better than 0844.

0845 numbers are often not cheap to call from landlines. BT are the main exception. However, BT's "generosity" in making these calls inclusive will not last for much longer. BT prices will become much like those of other landline providers once the "NTS Condition" is lifted.

Ofcom has proposed a number of other changes. These will make the reality of how these calls are priced very clear. The changes will likely see BT's prices going up and calls to 0845 numbers no longer inclusive in packages. It's also likely the changes will force a large reduction in the price of those calls when made from a mobile phone.

However, none of that will matter very much because any company using an 0845 number for customer service is required to move to an 01, 02, 03 or 080 number by June 2014 under the provisions of the Consumer Rights Directive. Ofcom have made this very easy: 0845 users can move to 0345 and keep the remaining digits of their number exactly the same.

03 numbers give a cheap call from landlines and from mobiles. If you have inclusive calls on your landline or mobile, 03 numbers also count.

shamrock_girl wrote: »

That leads me to the really puzzling question, does anyone know why you can't use 0844 with 18185&other phone call override companies?

BT's call price for 01 and 02 numbers isn't regulated. Outside of an inclusive call plan, BT charges 9p/min plus 15p connection fee for calls to 01 and 02 numbers. Other providers can undercut that.

BT offer the lowest price for calling 0843, 0844, 0871 and 0872 numbers because they are regulated to not make a profit on these calls. No-one else can beat BT's prices unless they make a LOSS on every call.


The "NTS Condition" will be removed from BT next year and Ofcom will reform non-geographic call pricing:
- The Service Charge will have to be declared by users (no more "calls are 5p/min from BT, others may charge more" garbage).
- Connection fees will be scrapped. They will be replaced by a per-minute Access Charge.
- The large mark-up added by mobile companies will have to be declared as an Access Charge. This act alone will drive down prices.
- Each phone network will declare a single Access Charge per tariff and it will cover all 084, 087 and 09 numbers equally. This will stop mobile networks charging the same equally high price for all 084 and 087 calls irrespective of whether the underlying Service Charge is 1p/min or 13p/min.
- Several other things, such as 080 becoming free calls from mobiles and 0870 returning to revenue sharing with a Service Charge around 10p/min (as detailed in other posts in this thread).

Businesses that truly want their customers to call them at the cheapest rates advertise an 03 number (while 080 numbers are free from landlines, it will be 2015 before they are also free from mobiles). Both mobiles and landlines include 03 numbers as "free" or "inclusive" calls where a call package for 01 and 02 numbers is in force.

A_Flock_Of_Sheep

It's about time these 08 expensive numbers were outlawed.

I remember the time when you phoned a firm up and they had a normal number and instead of the multitude of "options" and then a sitting hell listening to music and how important your call is you got straight through to a person.

How is that "progress"? Why can't you just ring a firm's number and just get through to a person not a computerised options game.

John_Pierpoint

A_Flock_Of_Sheep wrote: »

It's about time these 08 expensive numbers were outlawed.

I remember the time when you phoned a firm up and they had a normal number and instead of the multitude of "options" and then a sitting hell listening to music and how important your call is you got straight through to a person.

How is that "progress"? Why can't you just ring a firm's number and just get through to a person not a computerised options game.

You might well be able to call very cheaply when the companion is trying to sell you something.
Otherwise, with complex modern technology, the costs of staff training, not to mention minimum wage, means the average telephone answering person is likely to be a muppet sitting in front of a computer system; expected to handle a high number of queued phone calls per hour.

There is some logic to the hight costs of running a telephone system, when a good on-line system is also available.

If a good on-line system offered a question and answer system and then offered (say) an 0800 number to call if still confused, that would be the ideal solution.

As someone who once upon a time worked in computer support, I know how many "users" are prepared to grab the phone as the first option, and waste everyone's time by being unable to answer the simplest of questions, when making the call.

[I used to tell them "I was really most terribly sorry, but I would have to squeeze them in at the end of my shift at 18:00 hours and as neither of us would want to be there all night it would help of they could check the Q & A in the manual first" - amazingly about 80% of such callers discovered they could solve the problem themselves or the task could wait for core time tomorrow].

Ian01

vbbot wrote: »

I could not believe that during the stress of guiding my son through 'clearing' for university, the only way to contact UCAS was via an 0871 number - they even block the landline number given to overseas callers if you try to call from a UK number.

As well as the much-publicised 0871 468 0468 premium rate number, UCAS also has the rarely-mentioned 0330 333 0230 number available.

UCAS blocks access to their 03 number from UK landlines. An announcement tells the caller to ring the more expensive 0871 number, the one UCAS makes money from.

Calls from mobiles to the 03 number will usually connect, but UCAS rarely, if ever, mentions this option is available. The UCAS website states that the 03 number is for "If you are calling from outside the UK...".

When calling the 0871 number using a mobile, those callers are advised to re-dial the 0871 number from a landline, rather than directed to call the cheaper 0330 number from the mobile phone that is already in their hand.

This does not seem like a responsible way to behave towards callers.

OldGreyFox

Some recent activity on the subject.

http://www.which.co.uk/campaigns/premium-rate-phone-numbers/know-the-issue/

And

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2413432/Firms-deter-complaints-using-costly-0845-numbers-Customers-ban-lines.html

platdujour

In a recent MSE email it says that calling 0843 numbers from a Virgin landline (outside inclusive minutes) cost "Up to 12.41p/min + up to 15.94p connection fee, or up to 5.1p/call "

But checking MSE's Call Checker -

It tells me that if I use a service like Planet Numbers - 08437 150000 (from my Virgin landline) to call say Thailand, it will only cost 1p/minute.

How can these two things both be true? Am I missing something obvious here..?

DaveAA

fionajbanana wrote: »

I think its a disgrace that 0800 numbers are not free on mobiles - apart from Childline and another charity.

Numbers beginning 0808 80 plus some other 0800 and 0808 numbers are free from mobiles.

Each mobile phone network publishes a detailed list on their website.

Ofcom propose all 080 numbers be free from mobiles, but this is still a year or more away.

sdduk wrote: »

My doctors are 0844 and there is nobody that can convert it to normal number, ... Saynoto0870.com and none have a prefix number for them.

When your local practice signed up the 0844 system, the phone system supplier blocked access to the old 01 or 02 landline number replacing it with a recorded message telling callers to dial the new 0844 number. They then allocated a new landline telephone number to the practice, but kept it secret, and routed the incoming 0844 calls to that number. It's rare to discover what that new landline telephone number is.

0844 numbers were banned for use by practices in April 2010. There's a specific section in the GMS Contract covering this. PCTs spectactularly failed to enforce those provisions. NHS England seem to have taken a much more active interest in this issue. We can't be far away from the point where NHS England takes decisive action against remaining cases.

Your local practice will eventually be forced to reveal the 01 or 02 number, or adopt a new 03 number. The phone system supplier has already said that practices can swap from 0844 to 0344 or 0300 without cost at any time during their telephone services contract. The funding arrangements change when they do this.

Callers no longer pay a "Service Charge" within the call price. Part of that is currently used by the practice to pay for the technical call queueing and call handling features of their non-geographic number. The practice will have to pay those fees in future, but they are a small faction of a penny per minute.

The practice will no longer receive the 2p/min revenue share out-payment which they currently use to pay towards the lease of their telephone switchboard. They will have to pay for that themselves, without the benefit of an illegal subsidy collected from patients.