MSE News: Did you know 0844 numbers can cost double 0845 ones? Don't get fleeced by p

DaveAA

vm2pensioner wrote: »

Perhaps MSE ought to publish a shame list of businesses that use 0844 and 0871 numbers.

Far better would be to highlight those businesses that make the change either to 03 numbers or to other low-cost/inclusive numbers.

pmduk wrote: »

It's hypocritical, but unsurprising, that the Government hasn't announced plans to put it's own house in order first. Jobcentre plus still insist on claimants using an 0845 number.

There's a long time before the provisions of the Consumer Rights Directive come into force, time enough for the Cabinet Office to fully respond to the NAO report of July 18th.

DaveAA

I-LOV-MONEY wrote: »

I have been in correspondence with my doctor's surgery for over two years (when they first introduced a 0844 number). I have been in correspondence with three Practice Managers.

I get fobbed off, with "cannot change the contract", "too busy", " we will look into it". I am now reporting it to NHS England.

They have had the option to change to the matching 0344 number since 2008. They can do this at any point during their telephone services contract. The funding arrangements change when they do this.

Callers no longer pay a "Service Charge" within the call price. Part of that is currently used by the practice to pay for the technical call queueing and call handling features of their non-geographic number. The practice will have to pay those fees in future, but they are a small faction of a penny per minute.

The practice will no longer receive the 2p/min revenue share out-payment which they currently use to pay towards the lease of their telephone switchboard. They will have to pay for that themselves, without the benefit of an illegal subsidy collected from patients.

Ian01

platdujour wrote: »

In a recent MSE email it says that calling 0843 numbers from a Virgin landline (outside inclusive minutes) cost "Up to 12.41p/min + up to 15.94p connection fee, or up to 5.1p/call "

But checking MSE's Call Checker -

It tells me that if I use a service like Planet Numbers - 0843 715 0000 (from my Virgin landline) to call say Thailand, it will only cost 1p/minute.

How can these two things both be true? Am I missing something obvious here..?

The first statement is true. Calls to 0843 and 0844 numbers on Virgin Media do cost up to 12p/min plus a 16p connection fee. The second statement is true if you use a BT line rather than Virgin Media. Virgin Media charge a bit more than BT. BT charge up to 5.1p/min plus a 15p connection fee.


When you call an 0843, 0844, 0845, 0871, 0872 or 0873 number there are two parts to the call price.

There's a Service Charge to the benefit of the called party. This is up to 7p/min on 0843 and 0844 numbers, about 2p/min on all 0845 numbers and up to 13p/min on 0871, 0872 and 0873 numbers. It varies according to the first six digits of the telephone number called. The lowest Service Charge is around 2p/min.

The telephone network that owns the 08 number receives this money from your phone company and uses it to pay for handling the incoming call from your telephone network and route it to its final destination. This could be a UK landline, a UK mobile or (as in this case) an international number.

The other part of the call price is the mark-up your telephone network adds on top of the Service Charge. BT is currently regulated to not make a profit on call origination for 084 and 087 numbers, but that regulation ends in 2014. BT merely adds a 15p "connection fee". Call prices on other networks are not regulated and they can charge whatever they like. Virgin Media add a couple of pence per minute to the call price as well as a 16p "connection fee". Mobile networks add a very large amount, often 30p to 39p/min, in comparison to the Service Charge.

Your phone company uses this money to route the call to the phone company that owns the non-geographic number. That costs less than a couple of pence per minute and so they take the remainder as profit. Mobile networks make a huge profit on these calls.


A telephone number beginning 084 3715 is on tariff "g8".

The Service Charge is just over 2p/min, somewhat similar to the Service Charge on an 0845 number. That's the amount Planet Numbers receives from your phone company when you make that call.

BT charge this call at 1.02p/min plus a 15p connection fee. This is the lowest the call could ever cost without the originating network losing money.

Virgin Media charge this call at 5.1p/min plus a 16p connection fee. Virgin Media make several pence per minute profit on this call.

When called from a landline, numbers with a larger Service Charge will cost a greater amount to call.

T-Mobile charge this call at 40p/min, pocketing nearly 38p/min in the process.

Orange charge this call at 35p/min, pocketing nearly 33p/min in the process.

Vodafone fail to list a price for 0843 calls. It's probably 25p/min, the same as for 0844 numbers. They therefore make nearly 23p/min from the call.

Mobile networks add a large mark-up and charge all numbers with the same three-digit prefix at the same rate. They take no account of the actual level of Service Charge that applies to the particular telephone number.


Call prices for non-geographic numbers are very complicated. They are also "bundled" with no indication of how much is passed to the distant telephone network and how much is retained by your own telephone network. Consumers are being ripped off by some phone networks.

Ofcom has proposed simplification, and "unbundling" of the call price. After four years of planning and consultation, the legislation is expected to be placed before Parliament within the next few months.

In future, the number user will declare their Service Charge. In this case, Planet Numbers would advertise the call as having a 2p/min Service Charge.

Connection fees will be scrapped. Each phone network will instead advertise their Access Charge. At current levels, BT would advertise a zero rate Access Charge and Virgin Media would advertise an Access Charge around 3p to 5p/min. Mobile networks would advertise an Access Charge around 30p to 35p/min - except eyebrows will likely be raised at Ofcom if the Access Charge is anywhere near that high.

Ofcom's plans are currently delayed by many months. Mobile network EE has strongly objected to consumers having this level of transparency on call prices and is fighting Ofcom all the way. EE are also trying to block Ofcom from making calls to 080 numbers free from mobile phones.


Under the current scheme, Virgin Media will charge you 5.1p/min plus a 16p connection fee for calling the telephone number you mentioned. The 2p/min Service Charge is hidden within the call price. Under Ofcom's proposal, the same call would consist of an e.g. 4p/min Access Charge and a 2p/min Service Charge, with each party declaring their part. In this example, calls under 20 minutes long would be no more expensive than on the old scheme. Other phone networks would set their own Access Charge, setting one such rate covering all 084, 087 and 09 numbers on each of their tariffs. Other phone numbers have a different level of Service Charge. A business sets the level of this charge by their initial choice of 084, 087 or 09 telephone number. Choosing a non-geographic number beginning 03 or 080 means there's no Service Charge.

TSaver35

Hi..First time on this forum so I hope Ive put this in the right place.

.I've just discovered that RAC recently charged me a wacking £12.14 for a 40min 39 second call on their 0844 891 0321 complaints line for motor insurance customers.

I had NO idea it would cost that much. RAC had made a mistake on my no claims bonus stating it was a year shorter than it actually was, and I needed to change this for new insurer or premium would go up.

After a mind numbing 40 mins of pointless wrangling, they decided they couldn't help and had no records and advised me to call their broker, something they could have done in the first place. I got clarification from the broker that I was right..

Do you think I have any grounds for getting a refund for the call from RAC.. why should I pay them £12 to point out the defects in their system?

DaveAA

TSaver35 wrote: »

I've just discovered that RAC recently charged me a whacking £12.14 for a 40min 39 second call on their 0844 891 0321 complaints line for motor insurance customers.

Do you think I have any grounds for getting a refund for the call from RAC.. why should I pay them £12 to point out the defects in their system?

That number has a 4p/min "Service Charge". After paying for call routing, the RAC will be lucky to see a 1p/min revenue share out-payment from that.

Presumably you used a mobile phone. They usually charge 25p to 41p/min for calls to 0844 numbers. Truly a rip-off.

As it was the RAC's error, you should certainly ask for the money back. There are several accounts of banks making a similar payment to customers in the past.

The Consumer Rights Directive comes into force next year. It bans 084 and 087 numbers for customer service in very many industries. Ask the RAC for their geographic rate number, beginning 01, 02 or 03.

Ian01

Wywth wrote: »

Yes, I did say they were the costs from BT landlines didn't I?

For anyone that isn't already aware, calls from other networks may vary, and from mobiles will cost considerably more.

Something to bear in mind before deciding to ditch and switch away from BT.

Yes, BT currently offers the lowest prices for 084 and 087 numbers. BT prices are currently capped by a regulation that stops BT making profit on call origination on 084 and 087 numbers. BT prices for 084 and 087 calls are not "typical" or "standard" in any meaningful way. It is BT prices that are the exception, and especially so in the case of 0845 numbers.

The current situation is "calls to 084 and 087 numbers are expensive, calls made from BT lines may vary". Indeed, for 0845 calls, BT subsidises the 2p/min Service Charge and includes these calls within call package allowances. They don't do this for 0844 or 0871 numbers with an identical 2p/min Service Charge.

Call prices for 0845 numbers haven't been tied to the price of a local call since 2004. These are expensive calls on most networks. BT is the largest terminator of 0845 calls and play "tricks" with the retail price of calls made to 0845 numbers from their network. Other networks have to pay the 2p/min Service Charge when calls are made and so cannot afford to play the same games.

The "NTS Condition" will be lifted in 2014. BT will then be allowed to make profit on call origination for 084 and 087 numbers. At the same time, Ofcom will require each network to set and declare a single Access Charge covering all 084 and 087 numbers, one per tariff. If BT want to keep up the illusion that 0845 numbers are cheap, they will have to set a zero-rate Access Charge, but it will apply to ALL 084 and 087 numbers. However, users of 0845 numbers will have to declare the 2p/min Service Charge and BT will have to charge that 2p/min to customers. If BT decides to make the 2p/min Service Charge inclusive, it will have to do the same for the up to 7p/min Service Charge on other 084 numbers, the up to 13p/min Service Charge on 087 numbers and the up to £3/min Service Charge on 09 numbers. Ofcom's intention is that all 084, 087 and 09 numbers fall under the same pricing regime and are treated equally within each tariff (i.e. the same level of Access Charge will apply to all such numbers).

Consumers have been confused and caught out by the fact that 0843, 0844 and 0845 numbers are very expensive from mobiles, 0843 and 0844 numbers are expensive from landlines, and 0845 numbers are inclusive from BT landlines but not inclusive from other landlines.

Consumers have also been confused and caught out by the fact that 0870, 0871 and 0872 numbers are very expensive from mobiles, 0871 and 0872 numbers are expensive from landlines, and 0870 numbers are inclusive calls from many landlines.

The public are becoming aware that 084 and 087 numbers are generally a rip-off. They have expected them to be cheap everywhere because they have been influenced by BT's distorted price for 0845 calls and the distorted landline price for 0870 calls. Ofcom is about to end that confusion by removing those distortions.

In future, there will be no distinction made between 0845, other 084, 0870, other 087, and 09 numbers. They will all be defined as "numbers with a Service Charge to the benefit of the called party and an Access Charge to the benefit of the originating phone network" (and generally costing more than calls to standard 01, 02 and 03 numbers).

Calls to 084 and 087 numbers made from mobile phones should dramatically fall in price. There's no way Ofcom will allow mobile operators to set Access Charges of 30p or 40p/min on calls with a 2p to 13p/min Service Charge. At the same time, the price of calls to 0870 numbers from most landlines and to 0845 numbers from BT landlines will probably rise, bringing them in line with the prices for other 084 and 087 numbers as charged by other providers. Revenue sharing will return to 0870 numbers, with a Service Charge around 10p/min.

The Consumer Rights Directive will shortly come into force. This requires businesses using 084 and 087 numbers for customer service to move to a new 01, 02, 03 or 080 number. Users of 084 and 087 numbers can move to the matching 034 or 037 number at any time. 03 numbers are inclusive in call allowances on mobiles and landlines.

In the public sector, GP practices were banned from using 087 numbers in 2005 and 084 numbers in 2010. HMRC has recently made the move from 0845 and 0870 over to 0300 and 0345 numbers. In the Public Accounts Committee enquiry on 2nd September 2013, DWP committed to move from 0845 to 0345 and the Cabinet Office will produce a policy for the rest of government and various public services "within six to eight weeks".

Once Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs" are in force, all users of 084, 087 and 09 numbers will have to declare the Service Charge they impose on callers. Those that cannot justify imposing a Service Charge will move to 01, 02 or 03 numbers. Those that think they can justify it will have to declare it, but public opinion might ultimately force these businesses and organisations to reconsider their usage of 084 and 087 numbers.

People need to stop believing that 0845 and 0870 are somehow "cheap" calls. In general, they are not cheap, especially when called from mobile phones. It is the 03 range that is tied to "geographic rate" and it is only those calls that count towards inclusive allowances both on landlines and mobile phones.

In the short term, BT currently offers the lowest call price for 084 and 087 numbers. In the long term, nearly all consumers will win when the mass movement from 084 and 087 numbers to 03 numbers takes place. Consumers should already be asking businesses they deal with "when are you moving to an 03 number?"

shamrock_girl

I found out recently that a particular shopping channel I use seem to charge 5 p a minute for their 0844 phone number, it's almost all automated so usually on there max 1 or 2 minutes, so was puzzled at my BT bill charging me 25p for each short call. I queried this with the company and they assured me it was 5p a minute, but I later found out (may have been on here, have to excuse me as have memory problems)that you are charged a 15p connection charge by phone company! Does anyone know why this is and is it higher for the 0844 no's?

On similar theme, does anyone know if 0345 prefix will be charged at same rate as 0845? I know that BT is free for 0845 as long as it's off peak(my package)after 7pm evening Mon-Fri and anytime weekends/Bank Holidays. I did have a feeling that BT had changed their tune on charging off peak on Bank Holidays, anyone heard that?

jhp

shamrock_girl wrote: »

I found out recently that a particular shopping channel I use seem to charge 5 p a minute for their 0844 phone number, it's almost all automated so usually on there max 1 or 2 minutes, so was puzzled at my BT bill charging me 25p for each short call. I queried this with the company and they assured me it was 5p a minute, but I later found out (may have been on here, have to excuse me as have memory problems)that you are charged a 15p connection charge by phone company! Does anyone know why this is and is it higher for the 0844 no's?

On similar theme, does anyone know if 0345 prefix will be charged at same rate as 0845? I know that BT is free for 0845 as long as it's off peak(my package)after 7pm evening Mon-Fri and anytime weekends/Bank Holidays. I did have a feeling that BT had changed their tune on charging off peak on Bank Holidays, anyone heard that?

Yes a connection charge/ set up fee normally applies from a landline if a call is not included in your inclusive minutes. The cost of the connection charge does not change its the same for any non inclusive call.

03 numbers are treated the same as 01/02 numbers for charging purposes and are included in inclusive minutes.

BT do not include Bank Holidays in their Weekend Plans.

http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayTopic.do?topicId=31674&s_cid=con_ppc_maxus_vidSE7_T1&vendorid=SE7&gclid=CMehl5b-3LkCFSXLtAodCwIA2w&gclsrc=aw.ds

Ian01

There's a lot of figures in the tables, what are the essential points to note?

Calls to 080 numbers are free from landlines but not from mobiles. (However, Ofcom propose calls to 080 numbers also be free from mobiles from 2015. At present, mobile network EE are strenuously fighting those plans.)

03 numbers are inclusive calls on both mobiles and landlines. (For most people, these are the cheapeast non-geographic numbers to call, by the largest number of ways.)

0870 numbers are inclusive only on a few landline deals, expensive on other landlines and very expensive from mobiles. (They'll be expensive everywhere once revenue sharing is reintroduced in 2015. The Service Charge for 0870 numbers is expected to be around 10p/min.)

0845 numbers are inclusive on very few landline deals, most notably BT, expensive from all other landlines and very expensive on mobiles. (For calls to 0845 numbers to be inclusive in bundles, the 2p/min Service charge is being subsidised from the monthly call package price. This cross-subsidy scheme won't be able to continue once "unbundled tariffs" are introduced; callers will pay the 2p/min Service Charge plus whatever Access Charge their provider adds.)

Except for the 0870 and 0845 special cases noted above, 084 and 087 numbers are generally not inclusive in call allowances. (This is because the call price includes a hidden Service Charge to the benefit of the called party. Ofcom will shortly require this Service Charge be declared by all users of 084, 087 and 09 numbers.)

Calls to 084 and 087 numbers are priced very much higher from mobiles than from landlines. (Once mobile operators are forced to declare their Access Charge, the call price from mobiles should fall.)

On Virgin Media, out-of-bundle calls to 084 and 087 numbers (numbers with an additional Service Charge) are higher priced than out-of-bundle calls to 03 numbers (numbers without a Service Charge), as would be expected.

Across the board, calls are higher-priced on Virgin Media than on BT. (In particular, BT's prices for 084, 087 and 09 calls are capped by regulation. BT is forced to make no profit on call origination for 084, 087 and 09 calls. This regulation will end soon. While a few landline operators copy BT's prices, most prefer to make at least a small profit.)

On BT lines, the per-minute rate for calls to 084 and 087 numbers appears to be priced at (or in the case of 0845, below) the cost of the Service Charge. This leads to the odd effect (on BT lines) that numbers with a Service Charge (084 and 087) cost less to call than numbers without a Service Charge (01, 02 and 03). This is due to the effects of special regulations placed on the BT prices for 084, 087 and 09 numbers. These cap the call cost to ensure that BT does not make profit on call origination. It means that BT prices for 084, 087 and 09 calls are currently NOT typical. (It also means these prices are likely to rise once the "NTS Condition" is removed.)

Calls from landlines incur a large "connection fee". (In 2015, this will be removed from 084, 087 and 09 prices and replaced by a per-minute fixed Access Charge, one per tariff, that covers all 084, 087 and 09 numbers.)

Calls prices for 084 and 087 numbers from mobiles are subject to huge, but variable, levels of mark-up. This has the effect that numbers that cost different amounts from landlines are all charged at the same highly inflated rate from mobiles. (In 2015, this variable mark-up will be replaced by a per-minute fixed Access Charge, one per tariff, covering all 084, 087 and 09 numbers.)

After 084, 087 and 09 call prices are unbundled in 2015, with the details of the hidden Service Charge revealed and with the Access Charge system in place, pricing for these numbers will become a lot easier to understand. (One likely effect of this change is that 0845 and 0870 numbers will no longer be inclusive calls from landlines. However, this won't matter all that much as many companies will have already moved to 0345 and 0370 numbers under the provisions of the Consumer Rights Directive. 03 numbers are inclusive from landlines and mobiles.)

JCB_Digger

I'd like to add my tuppence worth (rather belatedly).

My mother (she's 80) uses Manchester Ring and Ride for essential transport to the shops, doctors etc and has to book her journeys for the forthcoming week by phone.

Until a couple of months ago it was a local number in Bolton, but they have centralised the booking service, and changed the number to an 0845 number (which there's nothing listed in SayNoTo0870 and isn't listed in WeQ4U's App)

At the beginning of the year we checked her bills and found she was paying about £25 a month to BT for line rental and an 'inclusive calls package' - after doing a little research I realised I could cut this to £10 a month by using Virgin's Big Talk PAYG tariff (which gave her unlimited landline calls, and up to 120 minutes to mobiles), so we had her BT line disconnected and sorted her out with a big-buttoned mobile - it worked perfectly, and she's saved around £100 this year and felt a lot more independant due to having a mobile to carry around with her in case she got into difficulty.

She's now forced to ring Manchester Ring & Ride on their new 0845 number (charged at 41p a minute from Virgin mobile) - the average call takes around 15 minutes, the first 10 where she's waiting in a queue for a real person to speak to her.

Long story short: Our "money saving mobile" is now costing nearly £30 a month in 0845 calls, so is more expensive than the BT line we had removed.

Can anyone think of a cheaper way of doing this - is there a cheaper tariff than the Virgin VIP at £28 a month that includes 0845 numbers?

Thanks in advance, John