Parking Charge - Excel Parking - Stockport Peele Centre

Umkomaas

Well you have been busy ITG!

What a mishmash of signage. The first photo you've done is an absolute classic with the sign to the left, in decent sized font stating 'If you can read this, then so can your customers' nicely juxtaposed with the Excel sign that is in far smaller font and is very difficult to read as you drive in with all sorts of other signs in your view and negotiating the narrow entrance.

Then you get to their other main sign - the font size is so small that you'd have to put your nose against the sign to read some of it.

Then there's total confusion - charges apply 24 hours a day. But directly below is a separate sign (doesn't look like one of Excel's) stating the car park is locked up at 2100 hours, how can anyone make head or tail of that contradiction.

Also - what does the Excel sign mean that parking charges will be issued for 'Exceeding maximum weight and/or height restrictions' - does this mean the driver, any passenger, or the car. What sort of 'contract' is this?

Then there's the KFC notice about 15 minutes maximum - which of all of these signs has precedence on this car park, !!!!!!!

So, time for a soft appeal to Excel, to get this charge dropped or a POPLA code, s'il vous plait. Here's a draft, based on the one I gave you yesterday but now with a paragraph on signage.

I am writing to you regarding parking charge xxxxxxxxxx issued to vehicle xxxx xxx on xxxxx at xxxxx.

The Registered Keeper of the above vehicle denies any liability for the unenforceable charge detailed in the above Parking Charge Notice.

The charge does not represent any form of loss and as such it is punitive and therefore a PENALTY.

NOTE - you may also want to put in here that you purchased a ticket and this was clearly displayed on your dashboard (if this was the case)

In addition your signage at the Peel Centre, alongside other signage on site, is confusing and contradictory and further does not meet the requirements of the BPA Ltd Code of Practice requirements. It can, in no way, be regarded as conveying any form of contract with the driver.

Confirm acceptance of this challenge and cancel the charge, or provide a POPLA verification code where a vigorous and robust challenge will be mounted.

No further correspondence will be entered into with you on this matter. If nothing further from you is received within 35 days of the date of this letter it will be assumed the challenge is accepted and the charge cancelled.

Failure to send a POPLA code would be a breach of the BPA Code of Practice. Be advised that failure to comply with a code of conduct to which you have committed is a prohibited practice under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, and I would not hesitate to report such a breach to the BPA, DVLA and Trading Standards.

Don't send this for a day or so to give other regulars such as Guy's Dad, Stroma, Kirkbyinfurnesslad, zzzLazyDaisy the opportunity to see your photos and my suggested response, to see if they agree or want to add/subtract anything.

Anyway - good work, we're getting there!

EDIT - just noticed Guy's Dad has posted during the time I was typing all my post! At least we are generally singing from the same hymn sheet

Umkomaas

Here's a little bit of extra reading for you ITG. This is a POPLA appeal against a charge on a retail park. It focuses, amongst other things, on signage.

This appeal was upheld by POPLA - read and digest ! You're going to have to do something like this (but as explained yesterday, you can use copy and paste, as long as you understand what it is you are submitting).

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=77478&view=findpost&p=854490

Pepipoo site is a bit 'sticky' tonight, so if link doesn't immediately open, bear with it.

Guys_Dad

I have re-read the posts and studied the photos more closely.

I prefer to be honest. The signs look pretty comprehensive and clear to me. They spell out pictorially how to get a ticket and that you have to enter your car's registration carefully. It also seems that any additional conditions, such as the 15 minutes stay outside KFC do not alter the main parking conditions displayed on entry and subsequently elsewhere. Then entry signs do direct you to t&c on the in-carpark signs.

Drawing a parallel with your users if you are an I T support guy, if you were in the PPCs shoes and you were in theirs, you would be saying "Why can't they RTBM (or RTFM if you were in a less refined environment)".

In short, I don't think you would win on a signage appeal, and that's being straight (unless the actual text heights don't measure up to the BPA standards, which looks unlikely). In addition, they even recommend that retain your parking ticket for 60 days, presumably so you can show that you did pay should it be necessary.

However, that does not mean that they are entitled to levy these swingeing charges and all of the general appeal points that we have recommended in other threads and have been successful should still apply in yours.

So, do weave in to your appeal the normal genuine pre-estimate of costs, punitive charges, lack of valid contract points and good luck if you appeal.

There is a major shining light at the end of your tunnel, however, and it is the PPC. From another recent thread, stroma has pointed out that Excel have only issued court papers 20 times this year so far as compared with over 1000 by Parking Eye. You may, therefore, want to weigh up your chances if you simply ignore all communication up to the point where Northampton court papers hit your mat.

Just a thought.

ITGuy90

Guys_Dad wrote: »

I have re-read the posts and studied the photos more closely.

I prefer to be honest. The signs look pretty comprehensive and clear to me. They spell out pictorially how to get a ticket and that you have to enter your car's registration carefully. It also seems that any additional conditions, such as the 15 minutes stay outside KFC do not alter the main parking conditions displayed on entry and subsequently elsewhere. Then entry signs do direct you to t&c on the in-carpark signs.

Drawing a parallel with your users if you are an I T support guy, if you were in the PPCs shoes and you were in theirs, you would be saying "Why can't they RTBM (or RTFM if you were in a less refined environment)".

In short, I don't think you would win on a signage appeal, and that's being straight (unless the actual text heights don't measure up to the BPA standards, which looks unlikely). In addition, they even recommend that retain your parking ticket for 60 days, presumably so you can show that you did pay should it be necessary.

However, that does not mean that they are entitled to levy these swingeing charges and all of the general appeal points that we have recommended in other threads and have been successful should still apply in yours.

So, do weave in to your appeal the normal genuine pre-estimate of costs, punitive charges, lack of valid contract points and good luck if you appeal.

There is a major shining light at the end of your tunnel, however, and it is the PPC. From another recent thread, stroma has pointed out that Excel have only issued court papers 20 times this year so far as compared with over 1000 by Parking Eye. You may, therefore, want to weigh up your chances if you simply ignore all communication up to the point where Northampton court papers hit your mat.

Just a thought.

If you don't read the sign on the way in because of its position, and go straight to KFC. You don't actually see any signs. But if you think this isn't the best way to appeal then I'll try the other options.
The appeal draft above kindly written by Umkomaas - if I do not include about the signs, but mention the fact I was eating in KFC and was not blocking anyone's way in/out, causing damage or anything and that the charge they've sent me is ridiculous compared to what they've lost (i.e. nothing). Would that sort of letter be OK?



Hypothetically, what would happen if I did ignore and then court papers did come to me? Do I need to claim it wasn't me driving or that the ticket they issued me is extortionate and basically inventing costs for nothing?


Thanks for the help so far guys, it's appreciated. I am starting to feel like paying it just to avoid the hassle, but the "ego" in me tells me "no, I've done nothing wrong" which stops me from wanting to give in so easily.

Guys_Dad

Please don't be put off including the signage point in your appeal.

If you drove straight to the KFC area and there were no other signs there other than theirs, then you can argue that you don't think the signs were clear enough and were confusing. I just called it as I saw it from your pictures, without th benefit of being there in person and seeing it as you saw it.

I don't think this PPC likes the potential hassle and expense of a court case where it costs them even if they win, so I would be inclined to put in a really detailed appeal to POPLA after a shorter one to them so that they know they will have to spend time and money if they decided to go to court.

You may have seen a thread on here where the MSE member actually went to the landowner, not just the lesee and won.
But whatever you decide, two things.

First of all, good luck and secondly, apologies for appearing not to be helpful at the beginning. You have obviously put the time and research in and I was too hasty.

ITGuy90

Thanks Guys Dad no hard feelings at all.

How's this? I couldn't improve much upon your draft as I am not really good at sounding "legal" but I did try to add in my piece.

---

I am writing to you in regard to parking charge xxx issued to vehicle xxx on xxx at xxx.
The registered keeper of the above vehicle denies any liability for the unenforceable charge detailed in the above parking charge notice.
The charge does not represent any form of loss and as such it is punitive and therefore a PENALTY.

In addition, your signage at the Peel Centre, alongside other signage on site, is confusing and contradictory and further does not meet the requirements of the BPA Ltd Code of Practice requirements and can in no way be regarded as conveying any form of contract with the driver.
On further inspection of the site, the parking area around KFC at the Peel Centre holds no such signs warning that it is a pay and display car park and such that you cannot enter into a contract with the driver without his or her knowledge!

Confirm acceptance of this challenge and cancel the charge, or provide a POPLA verification code whereby a vigorous and robust challenge will be mounted.

No further correspondence will be entered into with you on this matter and if nothing further form you is received within 35 days of the date of this letter, it will be assumed the challenge is accepted and the charge cancelled.

Please note that failure to send a POPLA code would be a breach of the BPA Code of Practice and be advised that failure to comply with a code of conduct to which you have committed is a prohibited practice under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, and I would not hesitate to report such a breach to the BPA, DVLA and Trading Standards.

Guys_Dad

At this stage, it doesn't really matter what you write, if you expect it to be rejected with a POPLA code. Your appeal looks ok, but I would make more of the fact that when you go to KFC, they have other signs that seem to override the entry signs which, at worst, is totally confusing.

ITGuy90

Thanks - here's my latest with amendments based off what you said.
What would happen next, a more in-depth appeal to POPLA and including all the other points already discussed?

---

I am writing to you in regard to parking charge xxx issued to vehicle xxx on xxx at xxx.
The registered keeper of the above vehicle denies any liability for the unenforceable charge detailed in the above parking charge notice.
The charge does not represent any form of loss and as such it is punitive and therefore a PENALTY.

In addition, your signage at the Peel Centre, alongside other signage on site, is confusing and contradictory and further does not meet the requirements of the BPA Ltd Code of Practice requirements and can in no way be regarded as conveying any form of contract with the driver.
On further inspection of the site, the parking area around KFC at the Peel Centre holds no such signs warning that it is a pay and display car park and such that you cannot enter into a contract with the driver without his or her knowledge! The signs that are around KFC are contradictory to what is written on the badly positioned and formatted sign on entry to the car park, which is confusing.

Confirm acceptance of this challenge and cancel the charge, or provide a POPLA verification code whereby a vigorous and robust challenge will be mounted.

No further correspondence will be entered into with you on this matter and if nothing further form you is received within 35 days of the date of this letter, it will be assumed the challenge is accepted and the charge cancelled.

Please note that failure to send a POPLA code would be a breach of the BPA Code of Practice and be advised that failure to comply with a code of conduct to which you have committed is a prohibited practice under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, and I would not hesitate to report such a breach to the BPA, DVLA and Trading Standards.

bondy_lad

ok,i am here again,op you say you parked there,a few weeks ago??but believe me when i say that all of these signs are new to the peel centre,as i have the originals on my mob and believe me you could not in any way shape or form read the line,,,this is a pay and display car park,,the question is did you park there when the original signs were there,or when the new, much clearer signs were there,i have tried to find out when they were changed,but to no avail.good luck.

ITGuy90

bondy_lad wrote: »

ok,i am here again,op you say you parked there,a few weeks ago??but believe me when i say that all of these signs are new to the peel centre,as i have the originals on my mob and believe me you could not in any way shape or form read the line,,,this is a pay and display car park,,the question is did you park there when the original signs were there,or when the new, much clearer signs were there,i have tried to find out when they were changed,but to no avail.good luck.

Well I do not recall anything regarding entering your vehicle registration when I did go there, so you could be right about the signs being changed (along with the machines). I do not know how this could be proven though.
Could you perhaps dig out the photos you have if you don't mind please?