Parents who force their children into religion?

Hermia

geoffky wrote: »

Because atheism is not mentioned in our house..My daughters just know they have not been baptized and i told them they can be if they so wish....
We do not preach or brainwash in our house as we believe a human capable of finding out for themselves if they so wish..

Yes, I know a quite a lot of atheist parents and none of them indoctrinate the child in any way. They all just try to teach criticial thinking skills in the hope that the child will come to the same conclusion, but accept that they may not.

seven-day-weekend

Judi wrote: »

I brought up my children in a very Christian environment but it has made no difference to their beliefs now they are adults.

You either believe or you don't. No one can force you to believe against your will.

Same here and I agree with you. It is a personal choice. (And indeed as regards Christianity you are not actually a Christian until you HAVE made a personal choice). Infant baptism is merely to welcome you into the church with parents and Godparents who will bring you up to know about the faith, until you are able to make a decision for yourself.

Many Christian groups do not have infant baptism,as they believe it is ONLY for believers who have made their own decision. My own church is in this category. Therefore, we did not have our son 'christened'.

We brought our son up in a Christian home. He is now in his thirties and an Agnostic who, whilst having a respect for the faith, has not decided upon his position yet. That is fine as far as I am concerned, although obviously I hope he will chose to be a Christian eventually. But no-one else can make that choice for him.

Mojisola

Hermia wrote: »

Re: the schools argument. I was recently stunned to discover that a mainstream CofE school near me is now teaching young earth creationism and uses some very dodgy teaching materials. I was astonished because it seems such a mainstream school.

Does this happen in the science lessons or RE?

securityguy

Hermia wrote: »

Re: the schools argument. I was recently stunned to discover that a mainstream CofE school near me is now teaching young earth creationism and uses some very dodgy teaching materials. I was astonished because it seems such a mainstream school.

In science lessons? Massive breach of the NC so, assuming it's a school subject to the NC, something to take up with their governors. But before you do that, check your facts.

andygb

securityguy wrote: »

In science lessons? Massive breach of the NC so, assuming it's a school subject to the NC, something to take up with their governors. But before you do that, check your facts.

There are certain schools where the NC does not seem to apply.

https://humanism.org.uk/campaigns/schools-and-education/school-curriculum/science-evolution-and-creationism/

We are on a very slippery slope in the UK. Putting schools out to tender, simpy means selling children's education to the highest bidder.

Yorkie1

sallypalma wrote: »

Actually Atheists far from being ignorant have a higher IQ than any of the Theist groups, they commit the fewest crimes (Christian are the highest offenders given the ratio in the population versus their numbers in the prison population) and are the group least likely to lie about themselves on dating sites (sorry, that award goes to Christian again !), so it seems that you may be the ignorant one.

Evidence for all these claims?

jenhug

Hubbys family are practising CofE, but oddly (to me) they don't christen their children.
My family christen but don't practice religion! My children are not christened, to the annoyance of my parents but its my childrens choice as to which religion they choose, if any.

coolcait

Person_one wrote: »

Lucky you! I went to a non-church primary school and we still had to sing hymns and recite the Lord's Prayer in assembly, and were taught Christianity as if it were true.

In secondary (also not a church school), we had one particularly 'devout' deputy head who would give us sermons at Christmas and Easter about the 'true' meaning and how she hoped we'd all be going to church over the holidays etc etc.

So your direct personal experience of 'religious indoctrination in schools' comes from an education in non-curch schools. that does tend to support the point made by NDG.

Most faith schools have something in their mission statement about 'upholding the tenets of the faith' or similar and the kids will be led in acts of worship by the teachers, unless the parents opt out for them.

What exactly do you mean when you say that "the kids will be led in acts of worship by the teachers"? My understanding of 'act of worship' doesn't fit with anything which could be led by a teacher, so you obviously have something different in mind. So, rather than comment on what I think you might have meant , I'd rather wait and learn what you did mean.

I've been in Catholic primary schools with altars in every classroom, with massive crucifixes all over the place, where they have to bow their heads and give thanks before eating their breaktime apple.

And I've been in Catholic primary - and secondary schools - where none of those things happen. Is this a regional variation? I doubt if it's a generational variation, as you have often said how young you are. Alas, I cannot make the same claim :rotfl::rotfl:. Yet, even in my own primary school days - all those decades ago - your description would have been a hyperbolic imaginary stereoptype of Catholic primary schools in this region. A region which has plenty of sectarian issues!

Sorry, but if you think faith schools don't teach that their faith is the correct one, you haven't been in enough of them.

I still take the view that parents will pass on their own views, beliefs etc to their children - even if they don't do so consciously.

I know that I actively share many of my beliefs with my children. These beliefs include "We're all equal". There's no scientific proof for this belief. In fact, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that we're not all equal - for example, when it comes to physical strength, I am demonstrably not my husband's equal. When it comes to other strengths, he is demonstrably not my equal.

Yet, despite huge amounts of empirical evidence which demonstrates that "We're all equal" is a nonsense statement, I still hold the belief in the fundamental principle of equality. My children know that. To the point of 'indoctrination', some might say.

As I see it, the atheist side of these debates is as guilty of fudging as anyone else.

Defining 'atheism' as "the lack of belief in any gods" is one example of that. The online Cambridge dictionary defaults to 'atheist' and defines it as "someone who believes that God does not exist".

I don't particularly agree with that definition, but it does demonstrate that a lack of belief in [the existence] of 'x' is pretty much the same thing as a belief that 'x' does not exist.

And it is quite easy to see how a 'lack of belief' can be passed on just as easily as a 'belief'.

coolcait

angeltreats wrote: »

I would be wary of them having so much Catholicism forced upon them. Although saying that, despite twelve years of it as well has having very religious parents, none of it rubbed off on me.

I wonder if that personal story will allay fears about 'indoctrination'? For all your concerns about 'so much Catholicism', it didn't affect you.

That's similar to the OP's personal story of the almost militant Catholicism enountered during primary school. Which clearly has not led to any enduring religious belief.

I went to a Catholic primary school. We went to Mass on the Holidays of Obligation which fell during term-time. With all the to-ing and fro-ing we were out of school for at least two hours. A lot of people saw that as a result.

There were no crucifixes - of any size - in the classrooms. There was a modestly sized crucifix in the corner of the foyer, and there was a pretty big crucifix in the storeroom - which was brought out for the odd occasion when Mass was celebrated in the assembly hall.

There were no altars in any of the classrooms. Except during May, when some of the younger classes would create a 'Lady altar'. This caused a great deal of excitement among the younger pupils, as they could bring in flowers, especially bluebells.

I doubt if any of them had the slightest awareness of any religious 'significance' behind all of this. And it seems like a huge stretch of 'belief' to suggest that any of it 'indoctrinated' them. Not when you look at the reports of falling attendance at church!

securityguy

andygb wrote: »

There are certain schools where the NC does not seem to apply.

https://humanism.org.uk/campaigns/schools-and-education/school-curriculum/science-evolution-and-creationism/

Gove has made it quite clear that Free Schools and other institutions not subject to the NC nonetheless must teach evolution, and cannot teach creationism. As the webpage you cite says. The National Curriculum does not apply to private schools, nor should it: state-mandated curriculums that apply in private or home-school settings fall into the "be careful what you wish for" category. We do not make windows into men's souls, and all that.

We are on a very slippery slope in the UK. Putting schools out to tender, simpy means selling children's education to the highest bidder.

That's the sort of content-free sloganeering that the religious favour. I'd expect better from the good guys.