Parents who force their children into religion?

Person_one

securityguy wrote: »

Many things have changed in the past forty years.

I've been in quite a few faith schools within the last 5 years. my account is contemporary.

Person_one

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

Infant baptism is merely to welcome you into the church with parents and Godparents who will bring you up to know about the faith, until you are able to make a decision for yourself.

Hmm, I'm not too sure about that. These are all quotes from the CofE baptism service (2000 update, not the book of common prayer):

• The wider community of the local church and friends welcome the new Christian
  
• Will you pray for them, draw them by your example into the community of faith
  
• In baptism these children begin their journey in faith.
  
• Christ claims you for his own.
  
• Fight valiantly as a disciple of Christ against sin, the world and the devil, and remain faithful to Christ to the end of your life.
  
• As they grow up, they will need the help and encouragement of the Christian community, so that they may learn to know God in public worship and private prayer, follow Jesus Christ in the life of faith, serve their neighbour after the example of Christ, and in due course come to confirmation.

seven-day-weekend

Person_one wrote: »

Hmm, I'm not too sure about that. These are all quotes from the CofE baptism service (2000 update, not the book of common prayer):

• The wider community of the local church and friends welcome the new Christian
  
• Will you pray for them, draw them by your example into the community of faith
  
• In baptism these children begin their journey in faith.
  
• Christ claims you for his own.
  
• Fight valiantly as a disciple of Christ against sin, the world and the devil, and remain faithful to Christ to the end of your life.
  
• As they grow up, they will need the help and encouragement of the Christian community, so that they may learn to know God in public worship and private prayer, follow Jesus Christ in the life of faith, serve their neighbour after the example of Christ, and in due course come to confirmation.

Being christened does not make them a Christian, how can it? It does introduce them to the faith, and it is certainly the desire that they will eventually chose it for themselves, but you can't decide for someone else what path they are going to follow and what they are going to believe as they grow up.

However, I speak as an adult convert who has never been a member of a church where infant baptism is practised. I suppose some people might think that being sprinkled as a baby makes them a Christian but it actually doesn't hold water (pun intended). Every baptism that is recorded in the Bible was of people who are already believers, there is not one case of a baby being done.

Also in Acts 2;28 Peter says to the crowd "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins'. In other words, come to faith first, express a desire to change your life (repent), then be baptised. A baby can't make that commitment.

It is an outward sign of what has taken place inside.

I was baptised by full immersion at the age of 31 when I had been a Christian for a year.

margaretclare

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

Being christened does not make them a Christian, how can it? It does introduce them to the faith, and it is certainly the desire that they will eventually chose it for themselves, but you can't decide for someone else what path they are going to follow and what they are going to believe as they grow up.

However, I speak as an adult convert who has never been a member of a church where infant baptism is practised. I suppose some people might think that being sprinkled as a baby makes them a Christian but it actually doesn't hold water (pun intended). Every baptism that is recorded in the Bible was of people who are already believers, there is not one case of a baby being done.

Also in Acts 2;28 Peter says to the crowd "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins'. In other words, come to faith first, express a desire to change your life (repent), then be baptised. A baby can't make that commitment.

It is an outward sign of what has taken place inside.

I was baptised by full immersion at the age of 31 when I had been a Christian for a year.

DH was brought up as a member of another faith. He saw much of it as 'a lot of hypocrisy' i.e. his parents could not strike a light on the sabbath because that is 'work' but they were both smokers, and continued to smoke! His grandad used to pay someone to come round and light his fire on the sabbath - a pocket-money job for little boys. In the Ten Commandments, which I memorised at a very young age but have mainly forgotten, it does forbid any work 'thou shalt do no work thou, thy son or thy daughter, thy cattle or the stranger that is within thy gates'. So, that would forbid paying someone to come in and do what you were forbidden to do yourself?

DH was baptised in his 70th year, not by immersion, but he did choose Christianity. I think it has to be a choice. There cannot be any 'forcing' of a child into any religion.

A few years ago now I was working in a foreign country where I was suddenly taken seriously ill. I was thousands of miles from home, so the only visitors I could have, when I started to recover, were colleagues. A couple of the young docs from my ward were kind enough - I thought - to visit me, chat and bring me reading material. It wasn't just kindness. An incident occurred which made it clear what their real agenda was. They wanted me to convert to the religion prevalent in their country. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to go along with them just to shut them up. The change would have been far-reaching and irrevocable. From somewhere I found the strength to say 'thanks, but no thanks'. The same kind of 'persuasion' is now occurring in our prisons, and no, I didn't read that in the 'Daily Mail'. I've seen, at close hand, how that religion operates, and it is not xenophobia, it is realism.

Someone asked if I break the 10 commandments. Well, I know of one I broke - getting together with a man who was married at the time! But on the whole, I don't covet my neighbour's wife, his manservant or his maid-servant, his ox or his donkey, or any thing that is my neighbour's. Nor do I covet my neighbour's holiday home or his BMW! I do do things on the sabbath which could be considered 'work' - I'm just about to go and do some ironing, but as long as that hurts no one, I can't see the problem. I don't steal or lie. 'Honour my father and my mother' - well, they're long gone. Not much else I can do!

OrkneyStar

I wasn't brought up with faith, me and DH are now both Christians (came to faith independently).
DS is brought up within our faith, but is also taught (by us and school) about other faith/lack of.
Ultimately he will have to make his own decision when he is old enough. I hope he will choose faith, but of course I will love him regardless.

andygb

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

Being christened does not make them a Christian, how can it? It does introduce them to the faith, and it is certainly the desire that they will eventually chose it for themselves, but you can't decide for someone else what path they are going to follow and what they are going to believe as they grow up.

However, I speak as an adult convert who has never been a member of a church where infant baptism is practised. I suppose some people might think that being sprinkled as a baby makes them a Christian but it actually doesn't hold water (pun intended). Every baptism that is recorded in the Bible was of people who are already believers, there is not one case of a baby being done.

Also in Acts 2;28 Peter says to the crowd "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins'. In other words, come to faith first, express a desire to change your life (repent), then be baptised. A baby can't make that commitment.

It is an outward sign of what has taken place inside.

I was baptised by full immersion at the age of 31 when I had been a Christian for a year.

I think that I would like to reply to the bit in bold first. I see that as an order - a decree if you like by a very zealous person. The reason that I see it this way, is that from an early age both at home and at school, we had the nonsense of "original sin" drummed into us. This awful concept, whereby a newly born child has the stain of sin upon it and MUST be cleansed by baptism, because if it should die then it would go to hell. So, Peter was not so much asking these people, as putting to them the choice - be baptised, follow Jesus and be saved, otherwise you will face eternal damnation. This is control by fear.
I know several people over past twenty years, who rushed to get their childen baptised, despite the fact that they were not at all religious - what is that all about?
In your case, you have made the decision to convert as an adult, and I have no problem with that whatsoever.

andygb

OrkneyStar wrote: »

I wasn't brought up with faith, me and DH are now both Christians (came to faith independently).
DS is brought up within our faith, but is also taught (by us and school) about other faith/lack of.
Ultimately he will have to make his own decision when he is old enough. I hope he will choose faith, but of course I will love him regardless.

I applaud you for that last sentiment, because I think that is how it should be. In the case of my relation, her husband seems to be a very controlling person who was brought up in a strict Irish Roman Catholic household, where one brother became a priest. He is a very serious person, there does not seem to be much humour in his life.

lostinrates

andygb wrote: »

I think that I would like to reply to the bit in bold first. I see that as an order - a decree if you like by a very zealous person. The reason that I see it this way, is that from an early age both at home and at school, we had the nonsense of "original sin" drummed into us. This awful concept, whereby a newly born child has the stain of sin upon it and MUST be cleansed by baptism, because if it should die then it would go to hell. So, Peter was not so much asking these people, as putting to them the choice - be baptised, follow Jesus and be saved, otherwise you will face eternal damnation. This is control by fear.
I know several people over past twenty years, who rushed to get their childen baptised, despite the fact that they were not at all religious - what is that all about?
In your case, you have made the decision to convert as an adult, and I have no problem with that whatsoever.

It doesn't bother me a jot I was baptised. I just don't think it meant anything. To ascribe it as meaning much would suggest I thought it held some kind of power ad thus the belief had strength and validity of some sort. I just cannot believe that sadly. Similarly I cannot get upset that whichever church it is were trying to save our souls posthumously if we are related to them., I think if they really think it will save us its jolly decent of them frankly. I don't think it will, so see no point getting worked up about it.


I find margaretclare's post difficult. I'm not an apologist for all people and wrongs not am I comfortable with everything that goes on, but I do feel its very biased. Christianity has been very hypocritical too, as are Christians, in the past and now, As are atheists and all of us who just drift along at times. I've never met the perfectly non hypocritical person tbh. (And if I did I have a suspicion they might be insufferably boring to e around:D).

Are members of my Jewish family in law. hypocritical...sure! So are members of my Christian family. So am I. I'd be more hypocritical to try and deny it.

chewmylegoff

I'm not really that keen on kids being indoctrinated into religions before they are old enough to make up their minds for themselves, but what I dislike more is atheists telling religious people what to do. Some atheists really don't seem to understand that by actively campaigning against religion they are actually becoming fanatical themselves, I.e. their atheism has become a religion to them and they have become the very thing they seek to criticise. The odious Richard Dawkins is the perfect example of this.

seven-day-weekend

OrkneyStar wrote: »

I wasn't brought up with faith, me and DH are now both Christians (came to faith independently).
DS is brought up within our faith, but is also taught (by us and school) about other faith/lack of.
Ultimately he will have to make his own decision when he is old enough. I hope he will choose faith, but of course I will love him regardless.

We are both adult converts, and our son was also brought up in the faith.

He is now in his 30s and an agnostic. Hopefully he will come to faith at some point, but it must be (and can only be) his decision.

As you say, we love him anyway.