Can narcissists change?

pukkamum

Manchee wrote: »

I have to say I do totally agree with this, people can display characteristics or certain traits of some mental health disorders without having that condition. For instance I am sure we have all known people who seem to be unable to emphasis with others or individuals who seem very self involved or have a very exaggerated view of themselves, maybe we would describe them as being 'narcissistic', but they wouldn't necessarily be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.

OP, your sister, has she ever been evaluated regarding her mental health? You were wondering how children brought up by a care-giver with NPD were affected. Have you posted any questions on any forums that deal directly with NPD and other mental health issues? Tbh, apart from the moral support that MSE gives, I would think you're far more likely to find people who can answer questions and give advice about such a difficult and personal situation on on a forum that is more specialised.

The only counselling she has ever had was going to relate with her husband to be, before they even got married, which she stopped because it was suggested that she wasn't perfect!
She has been through a major trauma when she was young, that I know still affects her but she would never admit any emotional weakness, insisting her life is wonderful and perfect even though it is obviously very far from perfect.

DomRavioli

Just my 2p's worth.

Counselling will not treat a personality disorder. Even 12 months of in-depth psychotherapy doesn't treat the majority. PD's get a bad rap because there have been a few people with them who did some pretty bad things. I, thankfully, am not one of them.

Narcissism to some extent is present in everyone; it forms a basic part of the id and ego, but in the vast majority of people, it isn't a problem. PD's occur usually when a part of the personality is not properly formed, or even missing; this doesn't have to be the bit with the problem, NPD sufferers may have never learned how to not be narcissistic, therefore that is all they can do.

I honestly wouldn't start labelling your family members with a potentially incurable disease without some serious health testing first - it can make situations worse, and their behaviour can become more erratic due to your behaviour towards them changing.

I hope that you do get some answers, but it might be the case that if you look hard enough, you will see anything in anyone.

pukkamum

DomRavioli wrote: »

Just my 2p's worth.

Counselling will not treat a personality disorder. Even 12 months of in-depth psychotherapy doesn't treat the majority. PD's get a bad rap because there have been a few people with them who did some pretty bad things. I, thankfully, am not one of them.

Narcissism to some extent is present in everyone; it forms a basic part of the id and ego, but in the vast majority of people, it isn't a problem. PD's occur usually when a part of the personality is not properly formed, or even missing; this doesn't have to be the bit with the problem, NPD sufferers may have never learned how to not be narcissistic, therefore that is all they can do.

I honestly wouldn't start labelling your family members with a potentially incurable disease without some serious health testing first - it can make situations worse, and their behaviour can become more erratic due to your behaviour towards them changing.

I hope that you do get some answers, but it might be the case that if you look hard enough, you will see anything in anyone.

Labelling her doesn't sit easy with me either but so many things add up it is hard not to come to that conclusion, do I think she is mentally ill, probably not, do I think she has problems, yes definitely.
Here is a link to a very old thread about her it is an ongoing theme.
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/1325847

meritaten

I wouldn't describe it as a mental illness, any more than I would describe people with Aspergers as being mentally ill. It is correctly described as a 'Disorder', meaning it is not an illness and it is not neurotypical, the personality just is!
If you could possibly get your Narcissist to admit they were wrong - or suffering a personality disorder I think they would be highly resistant to any treatment. but, certain types of narcissist may enjoy the attention and start playing mind games. especially the 'poor me' victim type - just think of all the attention and sympathy to be milked from that!

RAS

Hi

I would keep things fairly light in terms of contact and refuse to engage when she plays up. The one problem is that when they do not get their way narcissists often exhibit even worse behaviour.

Rather than trying and failing to address her current behaviour, you might try over time to raise the issue if the trauma (not suggesting that she does anything wrong as a result but just that it makes sense to deal with it). If she can find someone to help her with the trauma, that might lead to a shift in her behaviour but which way would be hard to predict.

With respect to her children (and yours) look out for Golden child/scapegoating. If she does that try to support both children by offering alternative behaviours although it will be very difficult if she decides she dislikes you treating them in a different way to her.

sassyblue

pukkamum wrote: »

It is my sister I refer to, do you have a relationship with yours?
I have recently started to talk to mine again after a big fall out, for which she didn't apologise but hey ho.
I want to be close to her, it terrifies me that she will follow in our fathers footsteps and alienate her whole family, yet I will no longer pander to her whims, demands and tantrums.
So how do I assert myself without another war?
Is it even possible?

Yes l do have a relationship with her as l don't want to lose her, l feel sorry for her but when she starts making comments in a social setting l ignore her or walk away. I don't very often go to her house because its harder to walk away and l have to bite my lip, luckily we both work so don't see too much of each other.

Ultimately you can't help her, she has to help herself. My sister has always been like this but has raised two children who are doing well for themselves, we used to worry she would alienate us from them but she hasn't. Interestingly they both comment on her behaviour 'mums not like you and auntie ***** she's moody and doesn't like anybody'.

All you can do is ignore her outbursts or politely tell her you don't see the situation like she does, thus she gets no attention for her behaviour.

My sister will be good for a while then we'll have a family get together which she always manages to try and ruin with her victim hood, every single one of her boyfriends has been no good for her in bolstering her confidence, something she sorely needs.... Although having said that she has achieved a lot in her career but still feels insecure somehow. She says l was mums favourite just because l was eldest but she nearly died several times as a premature baby and received more attention than any of us - no amount of attention is good enough though is it? You just can't win with her, she turns every positive into a negative.

Funny thing though, this trait is either getting more publicity or there seems to be a lot of it about, a lot of people seem to know one!

pukkamum

meritaten wrote: »

I wouldn't describe it as a mental illness, any more than I would describe people with Aspergers as being mentally ill. It is correctly described as a 'Disorder', meaning it is not an illness and it is not neurotypical, the personality just is!
If you could possibly get your Narcissist to admit they were wrong - or suffering a personality disorder I think they would be highly resistant to any treatment. but, certain types of narcissist may enjoy the attention and start playing mind games. especially the 'poor me' victim type - just think of all the attention and sympathy to be milked from that!

I agree meritaten, I was chatting with mum about it and I could see mum almost being glad of some reason to yet again excuse her terrible behaviour, I feel I am very much in a catch 22 situation, to refuse to pander to her demands will inevitably lead to anger and recriminations on her part and cause problems in the family, however, if I go with the old way of doing things to keep the peace I will end up resentful and angry.
I have managed to let go of a lot of bad feelings from my past and don't want to there again, I did end up making the first contact as per, after our last blow up and I know in her eyes this is her 'winning' as she has got me back without any apology on her behalf but I could not bear seeing my mum so upset.
I really am between a rock and a hard place as it is my nature to be nice to everyone and not hold grudges but this inevitably leads to being treated like a doormat.

pukkamum

sassyblue wrote: »

Yes l do have a relationship with her as l don't want to lose her, l feel sorry for her but when she starts making comments in a social setting l ignore her or walk away. I don't very often go to her house because its harder to walk away and l have to bite my lip, luckily we both work so don't see too much of each other.

Ultimately you can't help her, she has to help herself. My sister has always been like this but has raised two children who are doing well for themselves, we used to worry she would alienate us from them but she hasn't. Interestingly they both comment on her behaviour 'mums not like you and auntie ***** she's moody and doesn't like anybody'.

All you can do is ignore her outbursts or politely tell her you don't see the situation like she does, thus she gets no attention for her behaviour.

My sister will be good for a while then we'll have a family get together which she always manages to try and ruin with her victim hood, every single one of her boyfriends has been no good for her in bolstering her confidence, something she sorely needs.... Although having said that she has achieved a lot in her career but still feels insecure somehow. She says l was mums favourite just because l was eldest but she nearly died several times as a premature baby and received more attention than any of us - no amount of attention is good enough though is it? You just can't win with her, she turns every positive into a negative.

Funny thing though, this trait is either getting more publicity or there seems to be a lot of it about, a lot of people seem to know one!

I agree totally and i'm glad you are managing to have a relationship with your sister.
As for the increase in this behaviour, I read an article asking the question does facebook create narcissistic tendancies in people, and also an interesting piece on how the rise in narcissism in females (it is generally males) can often be traced back to them attending university. I know this when for my sister it became more prevalent, she was mixing with people from a wealthier more successful background and seemed to ignite a sense of injustice in her that she didn't have a privilidged background. She tells people she grew up in poverty, by no means true, we were brought up with 2 working parents in a lovely 3 bed semi, that she dragged herself from the gutter to become the success she is now.
Well the success she perceives herself as having, the reality is she has been sacked from countless jobs, never really went very far in her career and is now in a loveless destructive marrirage, but of course that is due to others failings not hers.
She also surrounds herself with very successful, wealthier people who I am sure only serve to make her feel worse about herself.
I don't know what the answer is, another article I read said that for many narcissists a major emotional trauma which occurs due to their behaviour is sometimes enough to make them realise and change their behaviour but I would hate for that to happen to her.

Callie22

Acc72 wrote: »

I agree with the above 100%.

However, I would say that "these days" everything is explainable by a diagnosis - thereby everybody has a reason (excuse?) to behave in a certain way.

eg. not every person who acts in a certain way is a "narcisist" - they could just be spolit, or selfish etc. and by giving their behaviour a label then it almost excuses their behaviour because they "can't help it".

Just in the same way that not every child who acts a bit naughty from time to time has ADHD.


Disclaimer before the usual comments : The above in no way detracts from those individuals who have been diagnosed with narcisism and/or ADHD.

I think sometimes a diagnosis of narcissism can be more helpful to the sufferer's family rather than the sufferer themselves, because it can reassure you that yes, there is a problem and no, you aren't mad (or stupid, or whatever the narcissist has been telling you).

OH's dad is a true narcissist, and is a very, very, very difficult man to be around. Oh, he can be charming when he wants to be but it all has to be on his terms. One wrong move and he'll turn on you like a vicious dog - it really is that bad. Without sounding dramatic, we have had to get social services involved because we are genuinely concerned that he will harm other people. He incredibly difficult to get along with. Everyone else on the planet is less intelligent than him, less well educated, less well off. Even when there is clear evidence to the contrary he will still insist that he is 'better'. The slightest thing will be blown out of all proportion and will be held as a grudge for decades (quite literally). His specialty is poison pen letters, absolutely vile, nasty letters that are horrible to receive. And he is so arrogant that he doesn't think that sending them, or committing that sort of nastiness to paper is a problem, because he knows that he is right and he is fully justified in what he is doing. Same for forging signatures - it's all come out recently that he's been doing this for a while and he doesn't think it's a problem. The trouble he's caused (and is still causing) is like ripples in a pond and we just keep coming across more issues all of the time. Quite frankly, it's exhausting and I'm glad that OH has cut off most of the contact with him. Some people are just so toxic that you can't have them in your life, and I'd rather spend the time trying to mend the damage to OH than waste my energy trying to 'fix' his dad. My OH, for all of his gifts and talents, has been very scarred by his dad.

So I honestly don't believe that a true narcissist can ever change. I think to an extent we all have narcissistic tendencies in our personality, some to a greater extent than others, and these are things that can be changed if you have the insight to understand them and the will to want to change them. But for someone who truly has a narcissistic personality disorder there isn't a lot you can do, because one of the hallmarks of the condition is that they could never be convinced that their behaviour is abnormal - they'd always be far more intelligent than the 'stupid' doctor or psychiatrist who's trying to tell them there's a problem ... I've said it before but dealing with a narcissist becomes nothing more than a damage-limitation exercise - first and foremost you have to protect yourself because you really can't let them get into your head.

sassyblue

Pukkamum, May l say something.... that you might already know? You seem to know how to handle your sister but your mum is your problem in not letting you deal with sister how you want to....

What did your mum do or say at your sisters last outburst and how you coped with it?