Scottish Power - when paying for your energy used isn't enough!

Simon7685

I appreciate your comments Cardew, though I do, probably not surprisingly hold differing views from you.

Just to clarify though I am perfectly capable of having a discussion on the phone relating to my account without losing my temper. I have done so on many occasions in the past but to be fair having been subjected to some of the provocation I was during the call the other day and some of the things the ill informed CS guy said, I don't think many people would have not lost their rag.

I do appreciate that a company with 4 million customers cannot have a bespoke system to suit one person but that does not mean that they cannot listen to the one voice and try to find a longer term solution in moving forward.

I feel that I have been the one that has been doing all the running since April. I am still waiting for an adequate explanation of how they came up with such an excessive estimation involving 4293 units more than ever used. Even though they may not have the usage history, they have had it offered to them. I have also on a number of occasions offered to repay in full any outstanding balance come the end of this years plan, which as someone on a limited budget I wouldn't do if I wasn't sure of my figures.

I think it highlights also that there have to be failings with their systems that a 32% increase can be accepted without some kind of additional review before it is imposed upon the customer. They knew that the previous 12 months use was 13556 units yet without hesitation they increase the following year by 4293 units, 32%. Surely any company should have an obligation to look at that before implementation?

It is things like this that cause problems. Many many people are subjected to uneccessary payment hikes that cause them financial problems. Pensioners are particularly vulnerable in this situation. their attitude is by and large that they have to meet these payments because otherwise they end uo in debt and for people of their generation debt is not an option.

So they either do without other things, or aimt o get their payments back down by not using energy. then their are those that simply can't afford the amount of energy they need to heat their homes and keep warm during winter. This is not sensationalism it is a fact in this day and age and sadly "heat or eat" is real. The end results are that people die every winter due to lack of heat, it might be extreme but it does happen.

I will be incorporating your advice relating to my payments in the letter that is going to Scottish Power, it will also include complete breakdowns of past use, present use and my estimations for future use to the end of October 2014.

If you are right and moving forward because they have 12 months usage to base their estimations on my situation will be resolved and excessive payments not an issue, then will not be a problem between me and them. However given that they seem to want insist on this higher amonunt of usage, I can not see it settling down, 12 months history or not.

As you correctly point out my use is so far removed from what most peoples is with 75% of energy used off peak, I don't think their system can compute that and this is the brunt od the problem. Which is why perhaps it needs some form of human intervention as opposed to computer generated forecasts. That does not mean a bespoke arrangement just a fair review.

I do not believe I am asking for the world in expecting a fair assessment with realistic forecasts and payments.

Simon7685

anotheruser wrote: »

Maybe because the bill is generated on the 15th, it detects your account is in debt, therefore wants to adjust your DD.
I bet if your DD came out a few days before the bill was generated, you wouldn't have a problem with all this.

I have thought about this myself, so it is interesting that someone else thinks the same. When I joined SP my first bill was generated after the 3rd monthly payment. From there on they have been asking for the meter readings before the monthly payment is due for that month. This quarter the bill was due on the 28th of July. On 10th July they advised if the meter readings were not submitted within 7 days they would generate an estimated bill.

Simon7685

An interesting thought regarding future estimated usage when a company has your past consumption. I would be very interested in your thoughts in particular Cardew..........

I also monitor and track my Mothers electric use, like us she is all electric and lives in sheltered housing. She has lived here for 14 years and always been with N Power for her electric.

When she first moved in it was a new build, (sheltered housing, 32 flats). Everyone in the building was with N Power. Their first bill was over £1000 for each flat because N Power had not forecasted correctly and made wild estimations. Anyway after 32 complaints things settled down a little and they were all reassessed. Although some just paid up and accepted what N Power told them.

In my Mothers case she settled down onto a monthly paid DD plan, after 12 months she was over £100 in credit and got a refund and reduced payment. She had 2 storage heaters removed during the next 2 years as the flats are naturally very warm and there is communal heating 24/7 all year round which also helps heat all the flats.

Anyway up until 2 or 3 years ago before I started monitoring for her she was constantly paying far too much and on more than one occasion had rebates of over £200.

So we are talking about an OAP living in a small 1 bedroomed flat, with only 2 storage heaters fitted. This has been the scenario for the last 12 years. Like most people her usage remains pretty constant from one year to the next, the only fluctuations are around the severity of the winters and if she keeps her storage heaters on longer than normal.

Even then we are only talking about a fluctuation of £30 a year.

So N Power have a history of 14 years, 12 of which are around the same. Yet every year there are still problems with their forecasts. (Hence why I believe my own will not settle after SP have 1 years history). I have had to ring N Power and argue the toss with them to get her payments set to a proper level for the last 2 years, since I started monitoring. Her annual usage transposes into monthly payments of £27. Yet they still want her to pay £42 a month. Last time I rang up I had to speak to a manager and I was able to get them to accept £30 a month, although I did have to threaten them with switching to get it. The problem there is they are the only company that offers the tariff, so to switch wuld result in paying more and they know this.

I think £30 a month is adequate, it covers her usage, leaves a small buffer and matches her history. If I can see and prove that, why can't they?

She has just rung me today to say she has had a letter. It apologises because they forgot to tell her that her pricing system changed in June, when they introduced a standing charge which was offset by a reduction in the unit rates. (I need to collect the letter to get the details properly). However it states that the overall effect will not increase their annual bills, it is just another way of working them out. - Which makes me wonder exactly what effect this will have in the future, otherwise why change it?

The upshot of all this is they have now decided that her forecasted use for the mext 12 months will be £620.

Currently it is £324 and she is paying £360. Her account is in credit and her actual use for the last year (June 12 to June 13) comes in at £27.10 a month. So where does £620 come from? Once again she has never used any where near that amount in any of the last 14 years. They have the history, so why? - because they can? A law unto themselves? Who knows?

I will be double checking everything surrounding this change they have implemented, calculating her use to date and then ringing them for an explanation together with advising them that her payments will not be increasing from £30 a month.

Yet another example of an energy company screwing the customer. Remember there are 32 flats in this building, according to the scheme manager all 32 are with N Power, as it is some sort of unique tariff that they have that no other supplier offers. So that is 32 elderly customers all of which will have received these letters and probably all which are now looking at paying double. My Mother is lucky, she has me to sort it out for her but how many of the other tenants have that? There are a number with no family at all, no one to turn to so what will they do? Simple just pay what they are told in the belief that the enrgy company will not rip them off. If that means they have to cut back on food or something else then they will because that is how the majority of OAP's think.

Heat or Eat working at its best.

Cardew

Simon,

I do not wish to be put in a position of defending Utility companies and in particular issues with NPower. - ask Direct Debacle!

Your gripe was about Scottish Power(and BG and EDF) raising your DD when their Computer estimate of consumption differed from your own more accurate estimate.

The situation is quite simple. If people want to pay by DD(and get a discount for doing so) then an estimate of consumption has to be made. Given that many people have no idea of their consumption in kWh, it is up to the companies to devise a system for the many millions of customers.

SP are no different in having to use their computer to estimate, but have quarterly reviews to refine the level of the DD and a guarantee that the balance will be less than £100 at the time of the review.

Obviously some initial estimates will be too high, some too low and some about correct.

Again, as asked earlier, for the many millions of customers who have no idea of their consumption, how do YOU suggest they estimate?

Bear in mind that there has been huge criticism of the companies for setting the DD too low and allowing customers to run up huge debit balances. Read the hundreds of complaints on MSE on this aspect and accusations that it is a deliberate tactic to 'trap' customers because they cannot switch supplier until they have cleared the debit balance.

From your emotive statements in this thread "Heat or Eat working at its best" - Companies ripping customers off and people dying etc, -you give the impression that an over-estimate of a DD level means people will end up paying more for their gas/electricity and they wont.

So instead of turning this thread into a general diatribe about wicked utility companies, or a particular problem your mother has with NPower, please stick to the issue of setting a DD level, and let us have your solution!

DragonQ

Cardew wrote: »

Again, as asked earlier, for the many millions of customers who have no idea of their consumption, how do YOU suggest they estimate?

The obvious solution is to keep doing what they're doing but if a customer calls up to ask for the DD to be adjusted based on their own more accurate estimate, then actually do so instead of refusing.

moneyspendexpert

Simon7685 wrote: »

She has just rung me today to say she has had a letter. It apologises because they forgot to tell her that her pricing system changed in June, when they introduced a standing charge which was offset by a reduction in the unit rates. (I need to collect the letter to get the details properly). However it states that the overall effect will not increase their annual bills, it is just another way of working them out. - Which makes me wonder exactly what effect this will have in the future, otherwise why change it?

Wouldn't the the introduction of a standing charge increase the energy bill?

Instead of being billed for energy used by the unit, a flat rate charge every day regardless of how much energy was used would increase the bill.

Simon7685

I have also offered my solution earlier in this thread as to the DD setting and forecasting of usage.

At the risk of repeating myself............

I think estimates of usage should be made by using previous history, preferably over a 3 to 5 year history. Previous consumption can be obtained in a number of ways, primarily I think energy companies could share energy usage when customers move, alternatively the customer can supply their history wherever possible. An average of a 3 to 5 year usage is going to provide a fairly accurate consumption level and would allow for heavier use over colder winters, as well as lower use over warmer ones.

Obviously there will be instances where this could not be done because of a new build, or customer who is signing up for energy use for the first time. I in this case, then there should be a default amount that can be used based on the size and occupancy of the property. In these instances the usage would need to be tracked to make sure that the consumption was accurate. As each quarter went by there would be an ongoing increase in consumption history.

I expect that this is not too far away from some of the models used today to forecast usage. It will never be an exact science where there is no history or little history to go on, however if the aim was to gradually build a history to work from that would be a good start.

I am quite sure that there would be pitfalls along the way however if there wa a set system using an average over a period of time, I firmly believe it would turn out to be a more accurate way in the long term.

However as I think we all know the energy companies are a law unto themselves and will continue to use whatever means they do now, which will continue to produce over estimated consumptions.

The reason I brought up my Mothers position was quite simple really Cardew....

throughout this thread YOU have constantly stated that any forecasts will settle down after a company has 12 months evidence based usage to work on. In my Mothers case a company with 14 years of evidence based consumption to go on still come up with constant over estimations, year after year. Which begs the question just how do they manage to continue to do it?

Exactly how do you come to this conclusion?
From your emotive statements in this thread "Heat or Eat working at its best" - Companies ripping customers off and people dying etc, -you give the impression that an over-estimate of a DD level means people will end up paying more for their gas/electricity and they wont.
I would very much like to know how you reach that conclusion?
If you get an over estimate and pay the new payments, then clearly you will end up paying more for your energy use.

My gripe/moan/whatever you want to call it, is about ALL energy companies as they ALL over estimate peoples payments at some point. If they didn't then there would not be people coming on forums complaining, articles in newspapers and programmes on the TV.

I have on more than one occasion been told before that if at the end of the year I have a debit on my account my payments will be recalculated to cover this shortfall as I owe them money. However if the boot is on the other foot, they will use that money to offset against future use. Is that fair? they know if they over charge they will keep the money, therefore they make it in their interests to over charge.

Scottish Power actually state the following on their website;
If you're in credit by more than 3 months' worth of payments by the time your annual review comes round, we'll automatically refund the credit amount to you. If you have less than 3 months' worth of payments, we'll factor this into your estimated payments for the coming year.

However when they factor this into the estimated payments, as you are paying for an over estimated use, they are still onto a winner.

Although the actual point is, if you are in credit by 10 pence at the end of a 12 month payment plan then that is your money, not theirs but you can only have it back if it is worth at least 3 monthly payments. Otherwise we keep it over estimate your next 12 months usage, so after factoring in what we already have, you will still pay more again than you need to.

This is leaning very much towards what I said earlier in this thread. No energy company wants anyone to be in a debit situation at any point in the year. They are slowly imposing this by means as above.

you can call some of my statements as emotive as much as you wish you cannot deny that these things do not happen because they do, they may be the exceptions and looking at it from an extreme but they still do happen.

As far as I am concerned every single energy company out there is interested in only one goal and that is to screw as much money out of people as they possibly can. Not only content with inflated prices and obscene profits, they still want more and more and have no morality over how they get it.

I think if it was put to a vote throughout the country you would find more people who support this view than don't. Also that most people believe they are having their forecasts over estimated and feel as though they are being ripped off.

The more things like this can be highlighted the better and the more chance that eventually someone somewhere will sit up and take note.

Simon7685

moneyspendexpert wrote: »

Wouldn't the the introduction of a standing charge increase the energy bill?

Instead of being billed for energy used by the unit, a flat rate charge every day regardless of how much energy was used would increase the bill.

According to the letter they have offset the standing charge by reducing the unit rates. I don't disagree with what you've said, as it does make sense and is logical. I will have the letter tomorrow and can report back with an exact quote of what it says and where it is going - which is increased bills.

In order to keep the peace I will at that point start another thread, as this one was set up originally around Scottish Power, even though I think they are all as bad as each other.

Simon7685

Call me a cynic but this is even more priceless, taken from SP website and following on from the we will give you a refund if we have more than 3 months worth of your money.

"What's more, if your account has a credit balance at the time of your next annual review, we'll actually give you money back. ScottishPower will pay you £1 for every full multiple of £33 above a minimum credit value of £100. That's £1 if your credit balance is £133, £2 if it's £166 and so on, right up to the maximum payout of £12 for a credit balance of £496. We're the only energy company to currently offer this kind of reward."

If this does not back up that they want people to carry large balances on their accounts, then I do not know what does. The bottom line regarding "we will give you" is total rubbish. They will be holding a lot of peoples money and using that money, any monies paid out in light of this promise will be more than covered from the prices they are charging, not to mention the value of the amounts of other peoples money they are holding.

This whole scheme will have been dreamed up in view to increase revenues and further boost profits, now way are they going to give customers something for nothing. If people can't see this then, well............

Cardew

Simon,

SP are saying if they get the DD wrong after the reviews and people are in credit by more than £100(and thus losing some interest) they will pay compensation.

The 'measly' discount for payment by DD(as you term it) is much greater than any interest lost - for dual fuel even if you had an average credit balance over the year of £1000 you would still be better off with DD payment.

You stated you were not concerned with interest. Why don't you elect to pay in arrears and never have your problem.

You still haven't said what method should be used to calculate DD payments for customers who don't have a clue of their annual consumption in kWh.

Your complaint is a complete non-issue.