Scottish Power - when paying for your energy used isn't enough!

Simon7685

Welcome to my thread Nsdlil.......

Another person who has had to complain to SP about silly increases and get their DD reset!

Not that it happens very often Cardew.......
Perhaps if they looked at their forecasting and left peoples anniversary date to when they joined - as advertised, this might stop happening. However that would mean them admitting they are wrong and we can't have that can we?

jaxkesa

My monthly DD has just gone from £34 to £114! Are they insane?!

Simon7685

Jaxkesa that is an increase and a half.........
Are you able to forecast what your payments should be accurately? Or what explanation have they given for the increase?
If you can give some more details to give us a better picture of usage and if your payments have covered it, either me or someone else on the thread may be able to advise you, if you want/need a hand that is?

DirectDebacle

Simon7865. Are you able to calculate, using the increased DD SP required you to pay, the approximate date your account would have been at zero? I'm just interested if it would be around the end of winter/start of spring next year.

It would be useful if an SP rep made a contribution to this debate. An explanation of a customers anniversary date and payment year would be a start. Also if SP have a zero spring balance policy for DD customers.

Simon7685

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Simon7865. Are you able to calculate, using the increased DD SP required you to pay, the approximate date your account would have been at zero? I'm just interested if it would be around the end of winter/start of spring next year.

It would be useful if an SP rep made a contribution to this debate. An explanation of a customers anniversary date and payment year would be a start. Also if SP have a zero spring balance policy for DD customers.

Hi DirectDebacle

I have just spent sometime trying to get the information you were after. So hopefully I have understood what you wanted correctly;)

Technically my account balances as of 20 July when this months DD goes in - owing 88.26 + 4 days use 4.74 = -93. Payment in of 97.65 would give a £4.65 credit balance.

However I have used my spreadsheet to calculate usage, payments made and balances of the account for the period 15 July 2013 right through to October 2014.
The forcasted usage is calculated using the equivalent period of the previous year and I have factored in SP's requested payment amount of £120 a month from August 2013.

I realise that in reality, assuming the same usage costs their reassessments every 3 months could see fluctuations in what they would ask me to pay but I can't exactly account for that as it is an unknown quantity. However I have also calculated exactly what the same situation would be if they left my payments alone at £97.65 all the way through.

Other variables I have taken into account are;
1. Last winter was the coldest winter for 100 years, which has resulted in this years consumption being up on last year.
2. Last March I received the Warm Home Discount payment of £130
3. Next March I will receive the WHD payment of £135
4. Remember that although I have tried to work each month 16th to the 15th, the payment for the month doesn't go in until the 20th.
5. Each month I started with an exact period (16th to the 15th), I was able to do this as I had daily readings at that time. However as the year moves on, I changed to weekly readings, so months are short, others longer. Although the end result is still the same as the whole period still covers the full year. I hope that makes sense:D

It is also important to keep in mind that although this year (Oct 12 to Oct 13) is showing a bigger than expected consumption due to last winter. That increase is still 2498 units less than the increase SP wanted to impose with their payment rise.

So yes my usage this year will have increased by around 13% but that has been covered by the WHD payment I received, which is what it is there for. Also it is still way less than the 32% SP wanted to impose on me. Correction have imposed on me with their forecast.

OK here goes with the remainder of this year to Oct 2013;

16/07/13 - 15/08/13
Opening Bal: -88.26 Used: 36.77 DD: 97.65 Closing Bal: -27.38
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: -27.38

16/08 - 15/09
Opening Bal: -27.38 Used: 58.03 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: +34.60
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: +12.25


16/09 - 15/10 (Anniversary Date)
Opening Bal: +34.60 Used: 77.55 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: +77.05
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: +32.35


16/10 - 15/11
Opening Bal: +77.05 Used: 116.00 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: +81.05
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: +14.00

16/11 - 17/12
Opening Bal: +81.05 Used: 154.57 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: +46.47
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: -42.93


18/12 - 14/01/2014
Opening Bal: +46.47 Used: 129.06 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: +37.41
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: -74.34


15/01 - 18/02
Opening Bal: +37.41 Used: 188.31 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: -30.90
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: -165.00

19/02 - 18/03
Opening Bal: -30.90 Used: 144.56 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: -55.46
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: -211.91

19/03 - 15/04 - Includes WHD Credit of £135.00
Opening Bal: -55.46 Used: 136.14 DD: 255.00 Closing Bal: +63.40
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: -115.40

16/04 - 13/05
Opening Bal: +63.40 Used: 89.90 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: +93.49
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: -107.66

14/05 - 17/06
Opening Bal: +93.49 Used: 83.45 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: +130.05
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: -93.45

18/06 - 15/07
Opening Bal: +130.05 Used: 52.79 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: +197.25
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: - 48.60

16/07 - 15/08
Opening Bal: +197.25 Used: 36.77 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: +280.49
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: +12.29

16/08 - 15/09
Opening Bal: +280.49 Used: 58.08 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: +342.46
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: +51.91

16/09 - 15/10
Opening Bal: +342.46 Used: 77.55 DD: 120.00 Closing Bal: +384.91
Assuming 97.65 DD - Closing Balance: +72.01 (includes 34.66 from previous year)

Units Used October 2012 to October 2013 = 15352
Units Used October 2011 to October 2012 = 13556

Usage October 2012 to 2013 = +1796 an increase of around 13%

Total Cost October 2012 to October 2013 = 1267.14
Total Paid including WHD Credit of 130 = 1301.80

Balance of Account at Anniversary date = +34.66

Using SP's latest Payment Increase would mean additional 44.70 to add to total paid

So Balance of Account at Anniversary would be +34.66+44.70 = +79.36

Forecast of usage for October 2013 to October 2014 based on previous 12 months actual use

Units Used = 15352 (3909 day - 11443 night) - 25.46% day - 74.54% night

Cost of energy used = £1270.85
Less credit balance from 2012/13 (+34.66) = £1236.19
Monthly Payment before WHD = £103.02
WHD 2014 = 135.00
Monthly Payment after WHD taken into account = £91.77

Current DD set at £97.65

Therefore payments for 2012 to 2013 are correct

Payments for 2013 to 2014 - I would leave DD at £97.65 which would allow for a small buffer. However as this forecast is based on a year with the coldest winter for 100 years, it is unlikely that consumption would be as high and is more likely to reduce because of that. Also having had new insullation installed in the loft this summer is likely to reduce energy cost by a small amount anyway because it only had it in places and it was only 1 to 2 cm thick. Now it is over 10cm thick.

I think this more than proves my point about my payments being correctly set.

Of course it does not take into account where SP got their increase of 4294 units more from for next year:eek:

Hope I've covered everything you asked for Direct Debacle?:D

DragonQ

I called Scottish Power last week after joining to change my direct debit because they'd set it too high. I explained to the advisor how I got to my numbers and he basically agreed but said the system was saying differently. I then explained that the reason for this is that the date for my initial reading was wrong, so it was assuming a higher usage per day than what I in fact use. He went away to talk to his supervisor and came back saying they'd change it to what I requested.

I am struggling to understand why anyone would have such a huge problem getting the direct debit level they want if they can show it matches their usage.

They might even reduce it later in the year because of my first direct debit being too high and a subsequent credit to my account, but I'd prefer just to get that money back and leave the direct debit where it is to be honest.

DirectDebacle

Simon,

Thank you so much for the time and trouble of posting your data.

Earlier in the thread Cardew suggested there may be a spring zero balance policy being used by SP. There is no suggestion of this in the DD info published on their website, which is no surprise. However whenever Cardew has a 'hunch' it is usually right.

I was wondering if a spring zero balance policy might fit in with your usage profile and their intended DD collection rate.

If I have read your figures correctly then it appears that you would have reached a zero balance between 18/3/14 and 15/4/14. Now I am not saying they do have a zero spring balance policy but it appears their proposed collection rate on your account, which was arrived at by an as yet unexplained estimate, would generate a zero balance round about springtime. Perhaps just a coincidence;).

It would be interesting to know if others faced with unusual DD adjustments found that the adjustment caused a zero account balance in the spring, when it would normally occur, as in your case, at a different time of year.

I feel confident that an SP re will be along shortly to fully explain their DD, if it works any differently to the information given to customers when signing up or on their website. The DD is explained as a'standard' DD scheme (cost of annual usage/12= monthly DD) which the vast majority of customers are familiar with.

I have no objections to such a policy per se. However it should be transparently presented as such. The uneven DD payments pointed out both on their website and shown in comparison site results.

Using underhand means to achieve that end is not on.

Simon7685

I agree with an awful lot of what you have said, I have for a long time thought that all of the energy companies are subscribing to a view that they want a spring zero balance. Even more than that I honestly believe that their ultimate aim would be to see a zero balance at every billing point during the year.

However they are not transparent about things because if they were they know there would that much of an uproar the government would be forced into bringing in more regulation but that is just my opinion.;)

If SP had said to me that they would be looking towards a spring balance of zero within the first 12 to 18 months, I would not have signed up with them, simple as that. They didn't though, I was led to believe that my first year would be last years usage divided by 12. So I expected £97.65 for the full 12 month period, unless it became abundantly clear that I was not going to cover my usage.

To be completely fair when the cold hard winter hit and my own forecasts were going up, I started to get a little worried. However when I knew I had the £130 extra credit from the WHD coming, I knew that would/should cover the extra use.

As it would seem to be looking by forcasting the last 3 months of this year. The above figures still show that my calculations are accurate and my usage for the whole year will be or even IS covered by the £97.65 I was assessed to pay from the beginning.

Now I understand that some might say ah but without the WHD you would have been short. The fact is though the WHD was there and I was always going to get it. Moreover had it not been, I would have taken action to cover the shortfall because on a limited income I cannot afford to get myself in a mess.

Another problem with not just SP but them all is, they generally do not want to listen. I was quite prepared to go through things with the guy I spoke to and explain how I knew I would be covered but they do not want to listen. All you get is stock phrases all the time. The computer says you need to pay more and thats that. They try to grind you down to seeing it their way and all the time their way is, as far as I can see ripping people off with unneccessary hikes in payments. Not forgetting had they had their way I would have started paying £125 a month in April. I then guarantee that come July even though in credit they would still have asked for £100 plus because you are building towards winter. Or a spring zero balance...............

I am still composing the letter going to SP over all this which will include all my information and calculations together with a forecast for next years payments which will start in October. It will also involve my payments staying the same for the whole of next year, unless I see a big problem along the way.

They won't like it and might try telling me I can't do that but to be fair I believe my figures do stack up and I have proved my points.

I do wonder how they are going to account for the 4294 units extra though, that at least should be a laugh. Maybe they are advocating I pay next doors electric as well:rotfl:

Cardew

Simon,

I keep telling you that you are atypical in that you apparently know to within a kWh your future annual consumption.

So the increased DD payment they tried to impose on you(as did BG and EDF) was not necessary. You informed all 3 companies and they kept the DD at the level you required.

The system(algorithm) that all the companies use to estimate future consumption has to cater from 'anoraks'(like thee and me) to customers who wouldn't recognise a kWh if they saw one live!!

So by definition they have to estimate and they use a independantly audited algorith to achieve that aim. As consumption patterns of customers vary, like any estimate they will initially over or under estimate on some accounts, but with quarterly reviews SP guarantee to adjust the level of DD so that at the review date* the balance will be within £100 or they pay compensation.

Also bear in mind that this should only happen in the first year, once they have a full year's consumption history it isn't a problem. As I stated above my future estimated consumption was exactly the same as the past 12 months.

Even in your case which you seem to think is a hanging crime! you might have paid £20 a month extra for 3 months until the next review. You wouldn't have paid a penny extra for your electricity just lost a few pence in interest.

That lost few pence interest is more than compensated by the 'measly' £10.50 discount you get for paying by DD. If that didn't suit you, there is a number of different ways you could choose to pay.

It seems to me the only gripe you have is that SP's 'Crystal Ball' wasn't able to anticipate your unusual consumption pattern.

How should any of the companies estimate, for a DD calculation, future consumption for customers who haven't a clue of their annual consumption?

Also bear in mind that there has been huge criticism of companies for allowing large debit balances to build up on some accounts.

There are so many things that Utility companies get wrong, but not this aspect. You just seem to be looking for a fight.

* As discussed if they are to operate a 'Spring Review' then it should be declared. However whilst it will mean that over the summer months the account will be in credit, the DD discount more than compensates for lost interest - or customers can choose to pay by another method.

SwanJon

Simon7685 wrote: »

Now I understand that some might say ah but without the WHD you would have been short. The fact is though the WHD was there and I was always going to get it.

While you 'knew' you were going to get it, the system will not take into account any payments that haven't been made yet so for future, and other readers, it is worth bearing this in mind. I manage my DD the same it is showing me that at the end of my plan I will be short, but between now and then I'll be able to make an adhoc payment to balance it - I just don't have the money yet.

Without the future payment of the WHD, you would have balanced in June, 11 months after their letter (which is odd), so I'm not sure if that still counts as a 'spring review policy', but it also isn't an anniversary of your start date.

As above the spring review is a red herring in your case. It was the high estimated consumption that let to their suggested DD amount.