Scottish Power - when paying for your energy used isn't enough!

dogshome

I think Simon7685 is absolutely correct and small step by small step, we have all been herded along a path leading to ' No debt at any time' by the the utilities

The April review is an entirely artificial datum point that has been slowly introduced by the companies, that has no legal standing.
In the beginning, all bills were issued in arrears on a Quarterly basis which wasn't good for the suppliers cash-flow, so they offered discounts to get regular cash in the door by D/Debit payment.

D/D's are based on Annual consumption and therefore the cutomers joining date is key to an accounts Credit/Debit situation
A customer joining in the Autumn will indeed build up a debt over Winter, but this is partly offset by the customer who joins in the Spring and hands over money that the supplier can 'play' with for 5 months.

Just where in the book does it say that customers who sign up late in the the year, should pay D/Debits that are over above the value of their known Annual consumption ?

SwanJon

Simon7685 wrote: »

...the guy in complaints agrees with my figures..

Maybe, or maybe it was the easiest way to make you go away.

Simon7685 wrote: »

...It is just the little hitlers on the front desk that cause the problems by refusing to lower payments. They are the ones that need to realise whose money it is and its not theirs...........

Why am I not suprised that you have had repeated arguments if this is how you think of people on the other end of the phone. Do you honestly think that the CSA gets off the phone saying "Mwahaha, I didn't let Simon7685 reduce his DD?"
They are often restriced to what they can do (they meay not have the access to do what you want), or are allowed to do.
If I ever had a customer come on the line with your attitude I wouldn't even try to go the extra mile. However, if you came on being polite asking for an explanation you'd probably get a lot closer to what you want a lot quicker.

Hope the time and stress was worth the saving.

ETA - I don't personally agree with the spring review idea, and while that may have been an initial trigger here I don't think it is the main problem.

DirectDebacle

I agree with the OP. Clearly the agreement was for 12 regular fixed DD payments. Thats the reason the DD was initially set at 1/12th annual consumption.

If SP or any other supplier have some hidden 'zero spring balance' policy they are trying to impose on customers then it needs to be challenged.

Simon7685

SwanJon wrote: »

Maybe, or maybe it was the easiest way to make you go away.

Why am I not suprised that you have had repeated arguments if this is how you think of people on the other end of the phone. Do you honestly think that the CSA gets off the phone saying "Mwahaha, I didn't let Simon7685 reduce his DD?"
They are often restriced to what they can do (they meay not have the access to do what you want), or are allowed to do.
If I ever had a customer come on the line with your attitude I wouldn't even try to go the extra mile. However, if you came on being polite asking for an explanation you'd probably get a lot closer to what you want a lot quicker.

Hope the time and stress was worth the saving.

ETA - I don't personally agree with the spring review idea, and while that may have been an initial trigger here I don't think it is the main problem.

I was polite when I got on the phone, I told him that I wanted to discuss the payment hike that they were imposing on me. I explained calmly why I was not prepared to have my payments increased. I explained how I had arrived at that point and backed up everything I said with figures.

He responded by telling me, no way was he going to drop my payments at all, my figures were wrong, theirs were right and I had to pay the amount they told me to pay, no negotiation and that was that.

It was at that point I started to get annoyed, quite justified I think. It is not for any company representative to advise a customer that they have to pay what they are told and that is the end of the matter!

Not to mention advising a customer that if they use a £1000 worth of energy and pay for a £1000 worth of energy, then that is not enough, they need to pay more!

When I go to do my shopping if my trolley comes to £100, I expect to pay £100 not more!

Nada666

THEN STOP PAYING BY DIRECT DEBIT. Switch to quarterly payments in arrears. Problem solved.

Cardew

DirectDebacle wrote: »

I agree with the OP. Clearly the agreement was for 12 regular fixed DD payments. Thats the reason the DD was initially set at 1/12th annual consumption.

If SP or any other supplier have some hidden 'zero spring balance' policy they are trying to impose on customers then it needs to be challenged.

Hi DD,

I cannot see how there is an agreement with SP for 12 regular fixed DD payments - or perhaps the OP can enlighten us where/when/how he got that agreement?

Scottish Power have a Review approx every 3 months. See:

http://www.scottishpower.co.uk/support-centre/payments/direct-debit-explained/

This estimates the cost 12 months ahead and calculates the level of the DD to bring the balance to zero.

Obviously this calculation is dependant on several factors, an important one being the customer's history. As the OP didn't join until October 2012 they have limited history in his case, and rely on the computer algorithm which automatically sets the DD level.

So in Spring 2013 it will set the DD to a level that it estimates will produce a zero balance 12 months ahead in Spring 2014.

I am with SP and on 04/05/2013 I got(on-line) a detailed forecast, down to a single kWh, of my consumption to 03/05/2014. Based on that estimate, plus the small debit balance on my account, the level of my DD is set.

Clearly at the next 3 month review if that estimate is too low or too high(according to the computer) my DD will be adjusted. It is pertinent to point out that these algorithms estimating consumption are independantly audited.

If the system doesn't function correctly and I go into credit above a certain level, I get automatic compensation. see link.

My issue with the OP is he joins SP on an on-line tariff(or has access on-line) where the details of the DD scheme are clearly laid down, yet thinks it outrageous that they apply the scheme to his account. After only a few months he is up in arms that the computer algorithm's estimate differs from his own estimate of future consumption.

It appears that he also had the same issue with BG and EDF.

It is not a case of him paying more by DD than he has consumed, merely that he might have a credit/debit balance.

It is IMO unreasonable to expect any Utility company to set up millions of bespoke accounts for customers each of whom know with certainty their future consumption like the OP.

He is not forced to have the SP(or a BG/EDF) tariff, but it is not unreasonable that if he does so, that he abides by the terms and conditions - which seem to me eminently fair and reasonable.

SwanJon's post above sums up the OP's attitude toward staff.

EDIT
The point the OP makes about paying more than £1,000 for £1,000 of gas/electricity is patently rubbish. Or perhaps he cannot understand.

Nada666

And you're the little hitler (#11), not the customer service agents - they are trying to be fair to everyone by arranging for everyone to pay the same way and to follow the same procedures. You think you are better than the scummy sheep and deserve privileged treatment. You know if you stamp your feet and whine you can get your own way.

It is your choice. Pay the reasonable amount the computer wants you to pay (despite denials you have not disproved the computer's sums - and there are plenty of cases where mistakes are made, but not this one) or every time you enter a reading go through a foot-stamping whinge on the telephone. Most people have better things to do with their time.

zagfles

Cardew wrote: »

I think the 'flaw' in your argument is, as indicated above, that all? of the computer algorithms for all companies get their customer's accounts to balance at a date in Spring.

Not according to Ofgem http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/media/factsheets/documents1/directdebitleaflet.pdf

SP are supposed to use anniversary date. If this is wrong perhaps they should take it up with Ofgem.

I'm in a similar position, joined in Nov, got a DD based on annual estimated consumption divided by 12, then in April they tried to recalculate it based on a spring zero balance.

If they have a spring zero balance policy - they why, if you join in the autumn, do they initially set the DD as estimated annual usage divided by 12? Do they not realise people use more energy in the winter?

I complained in April, and they didn't up my DD. After the July bill, they did, but based on a zero balance in 12 months time, ie not a spring zero balance but a summer one. Which I'm OK with, or rather CBA disputing, the DD hike is far less than their propsed hike in April, for obvious reasons.

zagfles

Cardew wrote: »

Hi DD,

I cannot see how there is an agreement with SP for 12 regular fixed DD payments - or perhaps the OP can enlighten us where/when/how he got that agreement?

Scottish Power have a Review approx every 3 months. See:

http://www.scottishpower.co.uk/support-centre/payments/direct-debit-explained/

This estimates the cost 12 months ahead and calculates the level of the DD to bring the balance to zero.

This doesn't make sense. If they review it every 3 months with the aim of bringing the balance to zero in 12 months time, then DDs are going to be changing by large amounts every 3 months, since they're aiming for a zero balance at different times of year every review!

The whole point about paying by DD is to have fairly consistent monthly payments, and to do that you can't go round constantly changing the time of year at which the account is supposed to balance.

Simon7685

Having sat this morning composing a detailed complaint to SP regarding the manner I was dealt with by their "customer service specialist" (their description) and also their incorrect forecasting of payments, the whole thing has become crystal clear.

The reason they want to increase my payments is as follows;

On joining SP I advised what my previous 12 month consumption of electric was, using accurate figures from both my readings and those of BG.

That annual consumption is 13556 units broken down as;
4075 daytime units
9481 Night time units

This meant that according to my calculations using my spreadsheet the total bill for the year was £1172.26 or £97.69 a month.

SP's calculation was a total bill of £1171.83 or £97.65 a month.

The difference between the 2 calculations is down to the roundings they use and the roundings MS Office Excel uses. However the variance is only £0.77 over the year. I think this demonstrates my spreadsheet is entirely accurate in calculating my bills and usage.

However SP in forcasting my usage now, have decided that in the next year I am going to use a total of 17850 units broken down as;
3347 day
14503 night
In the 9 years we have lived here, we have never even got close to that sort of usage. Which begs the question of where the hell SP get their figures from?

I am now going through their bills to try and find how they arrived at this figure of forcasted useage, which is over 4000 units more than we have ever used!