Daughter rant feeling quite raw

zzzLazyDaisy

julie8314dave wrote: »

I have spoken to her doctor about her working a few hours with me and to what way i pay her, he agrees that this is perfectly ok, as it will be the only way to get her to interact with other people, she refuses to go on any self esteem courses that have been set up for her. it has been a lifelong battle with her and i do not see an end.

What you are doing is wrong on so many levels...

Your doctor may be right, it may help her to work a few hours a week. But what you are doing is benefit fraud, and if she/you are found out she will lose her benefits and you could both be prosecuted.

Even if she was working for you for free, 'voluntary work' is only permitted under ESA if it is for a charity/voluntary organisation or is work related activity organised in association with the job centre.

'Voluntary work' for a close relative is expressly excluded.

At the moment she gets around £100 a week on ESA, plus £50 'wages' from you, with free board and lodge. You get cheap labour, effectively subsidised by the benefit system, and a daughter who feels hard done by because she is expected to turn up for work like any other employee, but instead of getting proper wages like any other employee in the business, she's given 'pocket money'.

If you wish to employ your daughter, put her on the payroll. Pay her minimum wage, and do it properly. If the 'pocket money' is really not 'pay' for the work she does for you, then don't link the work with the pocket money.

fluffnutter

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

What you are doing is wrong on so many levels...

Your doctor may be right, it may help her to work a few hours a week. But what you are doing is benefit fraud, and if she/you are found out she will lose her benefits and you could both be prosecuted.

Even if she was working for you for free, 'voluntary work' is only permitted under ESA if it is for a charity/voluntary organisation or is work related activity organised in association with the job centre.

'Voluntary work' for a close relative is expressly excluded.

At the moment she gets around £100 a week on ESA, plus £50 'wages' from you, with free board and lodge. You get cheap labour, effectively subsidised by the benefit system, and a daughter who feels hard done by because she is expected to turn up for work like any other employee, but instead of getting proper wages like any other employee in the business, she's given 'pocket money'.

If you wish to employ your daughter, put her on the payroll. Pay her minimum wage, and do it properly. If the 'pocket money' is really not 'pay' for the work she does for you, then don't link the work with the pocket money.

Thank you for that perspective. I'm not too hot on benefit eligibility but know that you can both work and claim ESA so on the face of it it's not necessarily fraudulent that she's working.

However, if it's like you've explained, then I was right to raise the issue of ESA and now I understand more.

Georgiegirl256

duchy wrote: »

So enough of the smart ars*ed remarks about all 22 year olds having low self esteem please-you're comparing apples with oranges !!

Sorry, I didn't realise I'd made any smart arsed remarks about all 22 year olds having low self esteem? I said that I would say most of us probably had some self esteem issues one way or another, didn't mean to generalise, as what you say is true, it does differ greatly from one person to another.

Your son has Aspergers doesn't he? That puts a totally different spin on things. So no wonder the poor guy is feeling like he is, he's had his trust shattered by someone who he thought was his friend. I'm sorry to hear that son is going through such a hard time at the moment duchy

fluffnutter

duchy wrote: »

To be fair Georgie there are levels of poor self esteem. Realistically my son who is 21 doesn't (yet) have the life skills to cope with the world of work. To illustrate he was doing really well at college this year - until a girl who initally befriended him and then turned on him (and the rest of the group but he didn't have the social skills to realize this until now).She has her own problems and is dating the only other aspergers student in the group now -and has totally isolated herself from her fellow students. Most people in their early twenties would have seen the scenario for what it was (a girl with problems herself) ....but my son's poor self esteem convinced him he had done something wrong -but he was too ashamed to talk about it as he was embarassed -consequently his already low self esteem was shattered and his work suffered to the point he has failed his first year and is currently suffering severe depression and anxiety attacks.He has always had trust issues with people -and right now will trust no-one and blames himself for trusting this girl and accepting her friendship. She's almost certainly oblivious of the damage she's done of course -but I still want to slap her HARD !

Telling him to get off his !!!!! at this point would achieve nothing -it's small steps trying to rebuild.

Anyway don't want to hijack -just try and put the low self esteem in context ...and also point out that when you're that inward looking you don't usually have any friends at all so are socially isolated so although work is good for making contact with people -it isn't always feasible.

So enough of the smart ars*ed remarks about all 22 year olds having low self esteem please-you're comparing apples with oranges !!

Hey, my comments weren't 'smart arsed'. I know firsthand how crippling mental health issues can be. But there's very little in the OP's explanation of her daughter's problems to suggest that she's suffering beyond the usual existential angst that most people of her age are afflicted with. And even if she's quite poorly with her mental health, then she is still able to take small steps that will help her. Seeing her GP, getting the right kind of medical treatment, attending the courses that have been suggested. There are no excuses for not at least trying and nor is there any evidence (so far) that doing these will cause undue or extreme anxiety, e.g. panic attacks, agorophobia etc.

Let's face it, she finds it perfectly easy to enjoy going to gigs so attending a few courses that might just help her see a way out of the misery she's got herself in shouldn't be too onerous.

LannieDuck

At the moment she gets free board and £50/wk. She doesn't have set hours, and you don't dock her pay if she doesn't work, so why should she bother? Of course she's playing up - if she's awkward about working, it'll be too much effort for you to insist, and she gets to do her own thing.

You have a very messy arrangement here, and you need to formalise it. Either:

i) stop giving her pocket money and tell her she needs to fund that herself from ESA (not sure if she gets money from this?) or find a job
ii) put her on the payroll properly, with set hours and a set wage. If she screws around, fire her

But I agree with the others, you need to check what is/is not allowed under ESA.

paulineb_2

I also agree, you have said that she comes in and works for you on a casual basis, what sort of casual basis? If she earns a penny and she doesn't declare it to the DWP shes committing fraud.

I worked part time last year, I wasn't on ESA but JSA and I had to declare every hour worked and every penny earned.

Also, theres an argument for saying, if shes fit enough to work for you, shes fit enough to be on JSA.

There is no way on this earth my doctor would give me a fit note to say Im not able for work and then say, its ok to go and work part time at the same time somewhere.

As to your issue with being short staffed and needing your daughter around, Im afraid if things have come to a head and you and she need time apart right now, you might need to accept that she doesn't want to work at this point in time either.

unholyangel

duchy wrote: »

So enough of the smart ars*ed remarks about all 22 year olds having low self esteem please-you're comparing apples with oranges !!

To be fair though, for every genuine person who cant work etc....there are probably an additional 3 that claim they cant but actually can.

I know someone who is in their mid 30's and has only ever worked for a 6 month period - total. They have never had a job in the last 15 years at all. When their gran died 10 years ago, they used this as an excuse saying they were too depressed. And the reason I say excuse is because they didnt work for the years previous to that either - except for a 6 month work experience placement the job centre put them on.

And tbh, I can see why they wouldnt want to work. £70 odd quid a week in their bank, £60 rent paid for them and £30 council tax. That means they're "earning" £160 a week for doing absolutely nothing. Dont have to travel to work/get out of bed/have early nights for work the next day etc. Dont have to pay for glasses, dental work etc.

The funny thing? When asked their profession, they give the profession of the job placement they done some 15 years ago for just 6 months! :rotfl:

Dunroamin

Has your daughter only recently gone on ESA because it was only last November that you said she was working?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/57236927#Comment_57236927

Also, has she only recently moved home because, at the same time that you said she was working, you also said that she was living independently and taking 2 week holidays abroad.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/47620115#Comment_47620115

unholyangel

Dunroamin wrote: »

Has your daughter only recently gone on ESA because it was only last November that you said she was working?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/57236927#Comment_57236927

Perhaps she meant working at the family business like she's doing currently?

Pollycat

julie8314dave wrote: »

She came into work on tuesday with bright nail varnish and jeans i said she would have to go and get nail varnish remover as i did not want her fingernails like that whilst working,

ellay864 wrote: »

Just one thing though, I don't know what your business is but would you insist on any adult employee removing nail varnish? My DSD is 19, has dyed hair, wears bright nail varnish and has numerous tattoos but her employer recognises that has nothing to do with her ability to do her job

julie8314dave wrote: »

i had a young girl working for me before she came to the interview looking very sweet and prissy, i took her on, after 2 weeks of working she started wearing thick black make up, black lipstick black nail varnish (you get the picture) i lost a lot of customers (mainly oldies because of this)

OP
Exactly how did you treat the young girl who 'started wearing thick black make up, black lipstick black nail varnish'?

Did you tell her 'she would have to go and get nail varnish remover' in the same tone and words as you told your daughter?

i.e. As someone else asked - are you treating your daughter and other employees the same - assuming that is that both were doing the same sort of work?

They may not be the same in terms of relationship to you and pay but I can understand if this is one of the reasons your daughter kicked off.
I'm not saying it excuses her behaviour and attitude (I don't think it does for one minute) but if she has seen you allowing one person to work wearing nail varnish and are telling her she can't, she is bound to feel it's unfair.

I agree with the people saying that your daughter really doesn't have a lot of incentive to change her lifestyle.

You don't mention any financial contribution to your household and I'd guess she doesn't if your OH gives her £50 per week.
How long are you going to financially support this girl?

When (if) she comes home, I also agree with the poster who says your working arrangement should be formalised.
Set specific hours that she needs to be at your business.
Set specific tasks that she has to do.
Make her very aware that payment of the £50 is dependant on her fulfilling her duties.

But - if I were you I'd read LazyDaisy's post very, very carefully before allowing her to return to work for you.