pulling into bus lane to let police car pass

Jamie_Carter

Road_Hog wrote: »

I won't (not until they change the law) and I've been in this sort of situation.

I was at the High Wycombe M40 roundabout at the front of the lights, when a police car pulled up behind me with blues and twos on.

My view was, why should I break the law and go through a red light and risk prosecution, why should I risk having an accident that would undoubtedly be my fault for jumping the lights. Why didn't one of the two officers jump out the car and legally order me to proceed through the lights?

I sat there for about a minute until the lights changed, and they kept the lights and sirens on for the whole time, I don't know what they expected me to do, break the law, I know a minute doesn't sound a long time, but it is an eternity with a police car right behind you with everything going.

If they don't like being held up, they should either get out of the car or complain to their superiors to get the law changed.

You actually did exactly what you are supposed to do. But the police should have turned their sirens off (leaving the blues on), and waited. Under no circumstances should they bully or harass you into breaking the law. But as you say they could have got out of the car, made sure it was safe, and then instructed you to go through the red lights.

Jamie_Carter

Strider590 wrote: »

The problem isn't the law, the problem is the "tick box" administration at the local councils....... It's "did the car go in the bus lane yes/no", I strongly doubt there's a box that says "were there any mitigating circumstances? yes/no". It rules drawn up by idiots who simply don't take into account what happens in the real world.

I did mention earlier that I have looked on many local authority websites, and it seems that most of them will accept 'moving out of the way of an emergency vehicle' as an exception to their bylaws.

alastairq

u actually did exactly what you are supposed to do. But the police should have turned their sirens off (leaving the blues on), and waited. Under no circumstances should they bully or harass you into breaking the law. But as you say they could have got out of the car, made sure it was safe, and then instructed you to go through the red lights.

This is absolutely correct. [speaking as a trainer].

alastairq

Strider590 wrote: »

The problem isn't the law, the problem is the "tick box" administration at the local councils....... It's "did the car go in the bus lane yes/no", I strongly doubt there's a box that says "were there any mitigating circumstances? yes/no". It rules drawn up by idiots who simply don't take into account what happens in the real world.

The problem is, lack of realisation that so many Laws are 'absolute'.

The problem is, too many people fail to realise that, once a Law is contravened, then the offence is complete.

That is a fact, and that is what we accept,living within the Law.

What is forgotten is, for this thread we are looking at mitigation.


Mitigation takes the form of two major parts.

[1], discretion can be exercised by the enforcing officer. [ie, whether, or not, they opt to report the matter, present evidence, etc?}

[2] Mitigation when being held to account...ie, yes, the offence is complete, the Law broken, but in mitigation, the offence occurred because, blah blah blah. It is then up to the Enforcing body [Courts..or, Appeal system] to decide whether effectively any sort of punishment should be imposed.

As fro the 'real' world?

That, is only the world we as individuals perceive it. Often influenced by our own perceptions, rather than the stark reality.


This whole thread really has descended into a pit of recrimination which is totally unjustified by the nature of the subject.

There has been too much influence attached to what we think, rather than what the Law allows.


In the OP's case, if a ticket is received, appeal as suggested by one or two, asking for confirmation from Police of the presence of a vehicle on blues, at around that time/date/place, then presenting that evidence to the Authority as mitigation of the offence.

simples.


[and if the above seems like too much effort, simply don't contravene the Law ..whether local or national, under any circumstances. equally simples?]

spacey2012

How would you assemble such information for an appeal of mitigation ?
These are civil penalties that councils issue, there is no recourse to justice.
Once they issue a ticket, you only have the evidence they provide to dispute it.

Rule 1 of dealing with local councils and enforcement is never forget you are not dealing with reasonable normal people, they know you are telling the truth, they care not, only what you can prove to the extent it will cost them money, they do not do discretion or accept mitigation, you either have a valid point of law that you can prove or you do not.
Do you really think the police or any other Emergency service are going to track down the driver at the time and take them off the run to complete a statement pack to get you off a penalty notice ?
If anybody has any kind of example where they have, please post it up quickly with a copy of the paperwork.

alastairq

Do you really think the police or any other Emergency service are going to track down the driver at the time and take them off the run to complete a statement pack to get you off a penalty notice ?

Why not? it is a reasonable request. All that one ask's for, is confirmation of the presence of said vehicle, time/date/place.

Not a statement from the driver! [The control centre of the emergency service will have that information logged.]


I cannot provide such evidence, because I would not have entered the bus lane.

But, if similar had occurred to me, that is the course of action I would subsequently take.

spacey2012

It is a very reasonable request, that I am not disputing, what I am saying is it wont be granted.
You are not dealing with reasonable people, you are dealing with authority.
They will not assist you to overturn the authority elsewhere.
Unless you could provide absolute proof from your own sources that you were given an instruction to enter the bus lane then the Penalty notice will drop on your mat and the process begins.
The lack of justice in these local council penalty charge notices is where anger needs to be directed.
The last thing they are is reasonable, they are money driven greedy people who lack morals and compassion.
They don't do mitigation.

If you do not want a penalty charge notice, do not enter a camera controlled bus lane, or that is exactly what you will get.

alastairq

a rather damning indictment? Perhaps you should harass your local Councillor over your beliefs?

[Damned sure I would if I found those circumstances to prevail?]