Official MSE Economy 7 Guide discussion

dunstonh

prccbc said:

Hi this has not been used for some time!

British Gas is offering smart v2 with a 2 rate tariff is this correct as i was told i could not have a smart meter before.

I asked them and they said yes but the smart meters with this function are not available yet. Does this apply to other suppliers? thanks peter

BG is pretty unique with it's issues and other suppliers do not have similar problems.

Scot_39

Given BG now offer several smart time of use tariffs - like their EV and Sunday deals - are they really still strugling with E7 meters on new installs ?

Not saying they haven't got loads of back dated problems already installed etc and billing etc - but on new installs?

Seems to have been going on for a long time if are.

No meters or often no meter fitters available I can kind of understand.

Not being able to get smart meters to work on e7 etc less so. 

As most other suppliers in vast majority of cases have had no such major widespread issues.

My multirate smart - so old its smets1 - meter has been in for years.

OwenDibhing

I am, I believe, an expert on E7 tariffs and know how to make the best of it. I have had off peak electric heating for 35 years (Nightstor 100) and an electric immersion water heater and also use washing machine and dishwasher overnight. I now also have an electric car which charges overnight.
For those who also use a lot of energy at night, there is a significant unfairness in how we are billed. 
With wind power becoming a major source of electricity, using electricity  to heat bricks at night and then using the heat it in the daytime is a major benefit to the grid. It is therefore daft and very unfair to make E7 users pay more for daytime electricity than those who use gas, oil, wood or coal for heating. In fact some energy providers offer lower electricity tariffs to those who have both gas and electricity from one supplier.

Why are E7 customers being punnished?

I will be writing to OFGEM to make the case for better treatment of E7 customers who use off peak electricity for heating. The Country needs more of them, not fewer. I will draft the letter and post it on this forum so that others here can make the same case. Perhaps Martin can join in.

mmmmikey

Users on a single rate pay more than E7 users  during the night and in return get to pay less during the day. How is that wrong or unfair?

TheElectricCow

OwenDibhing said:

I am, I believe, an expert on E7 tariffs and know how to make the best of it. I have had off peak electric heating for 35 years (Nightstor 100) and an electric immersion water heater and also use washing machine and dishwasher overnight. I now also have an electric car which charges overnight.
For those who also use a lot of energy at night, there is a significant unfairness in how we are billed. 
With wind power becoming a major source of electricity, using electricity  to heat bricks at night and then using the heat it in the daytime is a major benefit to the grid. It is therefore daft and very unfair to make E7 users pay more for daytime electricity than those who use gas, oil, wood or coal for heating. In fact some energy providers offer lower electricity tariffs to those who have both gas and electricity from one supplier.

Why are E7 customers being punnished?

I will be writing to OFGEM to make the case for better treatment of E7 customers who use off peak electricity for heating. The Country needs more of them, not fewer. I will draft the letter and post it on this forum so that others here can make the same case. Perhaps Martin can join in.

Believe me, I’m all for a good E7 tariff, but what exactly is it you’re suggesting? That the off-peak rates should stay as is while peak rates are lowered to the same level as single rate tariffs?

If that’s the case, the cheap rate electricity won’t stay particularly cheap for very long once everyone in the country starts using it with no drawbacks.

EssexHebridean

OwenDibhing said:

I am, I believe, an expert on E7 tariffs and know how to make the best of it. I have had off peak electric heating for 35 years (Nightstor 100) and an electric immersion water heater and also use washing machine and dishwasher overnight. I now also have an electric car which charges overnight.
For those who also use a lot of energy at night, there is a significant unfairness in how we are billed. 
With wind power becoming a major source of electricity, using electricity  to heat bricks at night and then using the heat it in the daytime is a major benefit to the grid. It is therefore daft and very unfair to make E7 users pay more for daytime electricity than those who use gas, oil, wood or coal for heating. In fact some energy providers offer lower electricity tariffs to those who have both gas and electricity from one supplier.

Why are E7 customers being punnished?

I will be writing to OFGEM to make the case for better treatment of E7 customers who use off peak electricity for heating. The Country needs more of them, not fewer. I will draft the letter and post it on this forum so that others here can make the same case. Perhaps Martin can join in.

The whole point of E7 is that it allows those on it, and with suitable household setups, to use a lot of electricity at night, to charge their NSH's and heat water for example. This typically gives a benefit to those users as they can also load shift various other activities to the cheap time slot as well - like you we used to run dishwasher and washing machine, generally made sure that so  much as possible we showered using the night rate, and even set things like our breadmaker to be ready first thing in the morning to make the most of this. the trade-off to this extraordinarily low rate overnight (we were prior to our recent house move paying just under 50% of the day rate for overnight energy use although in the past it's been closer to 25% of the day rate) is that energy used during the day is at a slightly higher rate than the standard for single-rate households - but in a household that is using their E7 tariff correctly, and certainly in one where there is an expert in such things - it should still balance that the average unit price is substantially lower overall than that which the majority of single rate customers would be paying. 

Scot_39

TheElectricCow said:

OwenDibhing said:

I am, I believe, an expert on E7 tariffs and know how to make the best of it. I have had off peak electric heating for 35 years (Nightstor 100) and an electric immersion water heater and also use washing machine and dishwasher overnight. I now also have an electric car which charges overnight.
For those who also use a lot of energy at night, there is a significant unfairness in how we are billed. 
With wind power becoming a major source of electricity, using electricity  to heat bricks at night and then using the heat it in the daytime is a major benefit to the grid. It is therefore daft and very unfair to make E7 users pay more for daytime electricity than those who use gas, oil, wood or coal for heating. In fact some energy providers offer lower electricity tariffs to those who have both gas and electricity from one supplier.

Why are E7 customers being punnished?

I will be writing to OFGEM to make the case for better treatment of E7 customers who use off peak electricity for heating. The Country needs more of them, not fewer. I will draft the letter and post it on this forum so that others here can make the same case. Perhaps Martin can join in.

Believe me, I’m all for a good E7 tariff, but what exactly is it you’re suggesting? That the off-peak rates should stay as is while peak rates are lowered to the same level as single rate tariffs?

If that’s the case, the cheap rate electricity won’t stay particularly cheap for very long once everyone in the country starts using it with no drawbacks.

It's a strange argument to enter into - since fundamentally - tariffs like E7 have always - as long as I can remember - had different peak and off-peak rates (a seesaw around Ofgem's multirate cap price - not the more common single rate cap price - that's right - they don't even have the same average / kWh prices ).

The MR cap average rate - for E7 anyway - is often cheaper - because it's based itself on a presumption by Ofgem a share of the load - remaining at 42% at last review - will be off-peak at night in the first place - so to some extent the off-peak savings are baked in already.

But lookingat say Agile rates in last few months - rather than over winter - early afternoon - has actually lower rates than E7's typical overnight slot - something likely to continue as BEV roll out increases as wel as ASHP etc.

But with price changes of late - those differences are often bigger differences too.

So just as the near doubling of SC causes upset - the differences in heating gas vs electric and day electric rates will do so.

As I see it - and playing devil's advocate a bit - rather than backing it - the argument above comes down rates at different times for same "needs"

Apart from EDF Eastern - iirc thats the one with sub 10p E7 DD night rates since Jan - many on E7 currently pay DD rates around 13-15p off peak - maybe c35p peak - with likes of EOn/EDF/Octopus who all publish regional tables - for charging their NS heaters and heating tanks of hot water.

So say 14p and any spillover plug ins / boost at 35p - vs those using gas currently pay c7p all day for heat / HW (maybe 9p allowing for efficiency of GCH / bolier).

So arguably those E7 users already pay double for heat.

But the E7 heat user then has to pay an 8p "peak penalty"  - say c35p to run all other appliances - in strict E7 case - 17 hours - 70% of the time.

Whereas the gas user pays flat rate - only c27p.

It's to many - a sort of double penalty - 14p vs 7p and 35p (to get that 14p low part time) vs 27p.

And at somewhere below - typically around 40% night use - that potential 14 vs 35 benefit in winter - turns into a real cost in summer - whereby E7 on average is more expensive than SR combined.

And given meter TOU ALCS switching seems to be impacted at some suppliers when go to flat rate billing - it's no guaranteed easy task to jump in / out of E7/SR seasonally.

And not an option at all for many - iirc c500,000 homes - like me - on other legacy tariifs.

I hit sub 50% on E10 in summer months - and that despite it allowing cooking / washing / TV computer use etc - at lower rate for 3 hours in afternoon - 2 in evening - someone on E7 would easily struggle to break even at 40% over summer months. I use c75% annually - so my 35p vs 18p seesaw on E10 not E7 off peak - works out at c22.5p.

And for millions - their's no gas mains to connect to - or simply a prohibitive cost of doing so - which iirc was done for most of the 24 millions on grid for free decades ago - on top of the cost of the gas boiler radiators etc.  

I can kind of see the imbalance.

I simply - most of the time - accept it - I knew the house had electric heating when I moved in - I probably also paid less as a result - but then I had a choice (many tennants - HA or private these days do not).

Just as I have to pay the price of food at ASDA/TESCO etc - and find food inflation far more annoying actually than the dynamics of tariffs like E7.

But I don't have to pay for gas boiler servicing or the £100+ extra in gas standing charges etc (that is about 10% of my last annual estimate) both non trivial costs to a low user. 

Or risk being blown up in the night if gas leak and it ignites - in my home - or worse - my neighbours. 

Just some of the Swings and roundabouts of life.

And I am on E10 so pay an even higher off peak rate at my supplier - by 5-6p/kWh over last few cap periods.

Heating by conventional electric - even if on E7 - is far more expensive than doing so by gas.  Something most households on grid - really have little clue about.

Something millions more will experience - as the march to switch off of domestic gas boilers gathers pace.  For those with no ASHP option - and even for those with - those in colder parts of UK - who will not benefit as much from as high COP ratios - due to lower mean external temperatures.  

Harvie et al in Scotland reportedly doing their best to accelerate that switch by stealth - via EPC and resale / renew tenancy rules "back doors".  And despite there being many where ASHP can soften that blow - if not better it - there is no such clear "cheap to run" solution for many in flats, which is c40% of Scotlands households.

QrizB

OwenDibhing said:

I am, I believe, an expert on E7 tariffs

There's something very off-putting about a brand new poster who declares themselves to be an expert on something.

Particularly when they go on to make unsubstantiated claims and use those claims to propose changes to the energy market that would benefit them.

dealyboy

QrizB said:

OwenDibhing said:

I am, I believe, an expert on E7 tariffs

There's something very off-putting about a brand new poster who declares themselves to be an expert on something.

Particularly when they go on to make unsubstantiated claims and use those claims to propose changes to the energy market that would benefit them.

@OwenDibhing ... however you are still welcomed to the forum  . 

OwenDibhing

TheElectricCow said:

OwenDibhing said:

I am, I believe, an expert on E7 tariffs and know how to make the best of it. I have had off peak electric heating for 35 years (Nightstor 100) and an electric immersion water heater and also use washing machine and dishwasher overnight. I now also have an electric car which charges overnight.
For those who also use a lot of energy at night, there is a significant unfairness in how we are billed. 
With wind power becoming a major source of electricity, using electricity  to heat bricks at night and then using the heat it in the daytime is a major benefit to the grid. It is therefore daft and very unfair to make E7 users pay more for daytime electricity than those who use gas, oil, wood or coal for heating. In fact some energy providers offer lower electricity tariffs to those who have both gas and electricity from one supplier.

Why are E7 customers being punnished?

I will be writing to OFGEM to make the case for better treatment of E7 customers who use off peak electricity for heating. The Country needs more of them, not fewer. I will draft the letter and post it on this forum so that others here can make the same case. Perhaps Martin can join in.

Believe me, I’m all for a good E7 tariff, but what exactly is it you’re suggesting? That the off-peak rates should stay as is while peak rates are lowered to the same level as single rate tariffs?

If that’s the case, the cheap rate electricity won’t stay particularly cheap for very long once everyone in the country starts using it with no drawbacks.

Yes I am proposing that. People need to be encouraged to use off peak electricity particularly as wind and nuclear become predominant.  Domestic storage heating is the best way to store excess energy which will be produced at night.
Even more radical, why not have a different provider for off peak and the rest.