Official MSE Economy 7 Guide discussion

slenderkitten

I read about 2 years ago that the British government is getting rid of the Economy 7 tariff in the next couple of years, is this correct?

coffeehound

slenderkitten said:

I read about 2 years ago that the British government is getting rid of the Economy 7 tariff in the next couple of years, is this correct?

I wonder if that was referring to the radio signal that is used to switch some E7 meters.  It is an old system that uses some obsolescent components so there are constant threats that it will stop.  Wikipedia says it is currently expected to keep running until at least next year

Several further extensions have been negotiated between the Energy Networks Association and the BBC from 2019 onwards, due to the lack of progress in developing suitable smart meter alternatives. The availability of radio teleswitching has been progressively extended and as of early 2021 the service was due to remain in operation until at least March 2023

Affected meters will have to be replaced by smart meters, presumably.

As to the future of 'time-of-use' tarrifs, hopefully they will continue in some form  With electric cars becoming more common, and a shift towards electric home heating, it will still be in the industry's interests to even out demand by incentivising people to use more power overnight

EssexHebridean

British Gas had better start hurrying up to get their smart metering sorted, then… 

MalcBridge

I can't pretend to have read all the preceding 61 pages so apologies if my points have already been made.
1. Economy 7 appears to be dying as off-peak rates are being increased (much) faster than day rates. At the last increase my supplier (Octopus) increased the off-peak rate by 29% while the day rate only went up by 4%. The off-peak is now 77% of the day rate so, given that off-peak heating is less efficient in its use of energy (see my 2nd point), it is questionable whether is is worthwhile any longer, though this will vary with individual usage.
2. As storage radiators start to heat up soon after midnight and are at their hottest at about the time most people get up, a considerable amount of energy is lost into empty rooms before any stored heat is actually used. Except when running on maximum input a storage radiator will not need the full 7 hours to reach its maximum set temperature so fitting a timer into the heating control circuit and using it to delay the start of heating can reduce this. Allow about 1 hour (counted backwards from the end of the off-peak period) for each 'notch' (usually of 7) on the heater thermostat as a start.

Gerry1

MalcBridge said:

At the last increase my supplier (Octopus) increased the off-peak rate by 29% while the day rate only went up by 4%. The off-peak is now 77% of the day rate

It varies between suppliers and even between regions with the same supplier.  For example, from 1 April EDF's night rate in the South East is only 38% of the day rate (14.14p night / 37.20p day) and still less than half the single rate (47.9%).  Unfortunately the E7 day rate is quite expensive compared to the single rate, but for people with significant night usage (e.g. retirees and people WFH) E7could still be very worthwhile.

MalcBridge said:

As storage radiators start to heat up soon after midnight and are at their hottest at about the time most people get up, a considerable amount of energy is lost into empty rooms before any stored heat is actually used.

That was certainly true with the simple Box of Bricks NSHs originally used (especially if users didn't turn down the output control at bedtime) but far less so with the fan assisted High Heat Retention versions which have replaced them.  It's like replacing a hot water bottle with a vacuum flask.

quest4me2

I hate E7, it is so expensive to run for my dad in his flat, most of the residents actually have to use oil filled radiators come 3pm because the E7 output on the heaters gives off nothing, the system they have is around 15 years old, and even the on-site electrician says he cannot get parts for it anymore.

And the current rates for EON Next in Greater Manchester are:

Eco 7 Electricity

Day 23.40p kWh
Night 12.45p kWh
Standing Charge 24.47 p/day

Thankfully, the housing are planning to replace the E7 system next year (possibly this year) after a mass complaint from the tenants, and we are hoping it will be a better more efficient system.

On, top of that we recently found out the walls of the properties were not insulated (build early 90's), and they have just had insulation put in, and already in a matter of weeks you can feel the difference in the warmth!

Gerry1

quest4me2 said:

I hate E7, it is so expensive to run for my dad in his flat, most of the residents actually have to use oil filled radiators come 3pm because the E7 output on the heaters gives off nothing, the system they have is around 15 years old, and even the on-site electrician says he cannot get parts for it anymore.

That's not a problem caused by E7, it's just that the NSHs are seriously under dimensioned.

MWT

quest4me2 said:

Thankfully, the housing are planning to replace the E7 system next year (possibly this year) after a mass complaint from the tenants, and we are hoping it will be a better more efficient system.

Don't hate the E7, just hate the fact that the old heaters were the wrong size.

The new system isn't going to be any more efficient, but if they intend to fit new NSH of the correct size it is possible that they will retain the heat better and will not need to be topped up with peak rate electricity.

Your worst nightmare is that they replace them with cheap panel heaters that will need to be on all day with no benefit from a cheaper night rate...

QrizB

MWT said:

Your worst nightmare is that they replace them with cheap panel heaters that will need to be on all day with no benefit from a cheaper night rate...

Although a district heating system that buys gas at uncapped commercial rates is barely any better, from reading some of the threads recently!

dingue

I've been on E7 for 40 years and it's saved me about 10-15% compared with the best single rate tariff. I also have noticed the difference between day and night rates is being reduced. I use an immersen heater to supply hot water and wall mounted panel convectors in each room, 9 in total. Average annual consumption 12,000kWh. Room temperature 19-21c throughout the whole house 24/7 (3 bed semi). If you believe that gas would be cheaper because of lower energy cost per kW then you need to provide time and temperature figures for a similar house. I think storage heaters are an outdated technology - a legacy of a surplus of cheap nighttime energy from nuclear power. And they are so expensive to buy new. I cannot see why anyone would still chose them but someone's buying them because Dimplex and others still list them. Modern panel convectors using electronic thermostats properly installed are a fit and forget option - silent 100% efficient, nil maintenance cost.