Santander trying to steal £14,200 from me

Gentoo365

The biggest problem with Bitcoins is that they are not regulated, and cannot be traced. Therefore the source of funds cannot be ascertained.

In many countries (including the UK) banks are obliged to make some sort of effort to ensure that money passing though their customers accounts does not have any links to illegal activity.

In fact in the US there are some people that believe that the banks should be made criminally liable for any activities that their customers get up to:

http://www.dailypaul.com/275796/hsbc-report-should-result-in-prosecutions-not-just-fines-say-critics

Now I am sure that the OP is not doing anything illegal (or unlawful). He simply sold some currency to someone else. However the funds he received may have been involved in some sort of crime. If the bank is the one 'on the hook' for this possible crime then they have no option but to freeze the account and investigate.

What I do not understand is why they freeze the whole account. Surely the bank can confirm that some of the money is genuinely clean (e.g. the last salary payment) and release that.

As above, shouting and raising your voice is not likely to help, as the people in the local branch will not really have the authority to do anything (and may not even know why the account is frozen).

The department that the OP needs to speak to are the fraud prevention team, and the best option is to try to at least reduce the 'frozen' part of the account to the funds in dispute.

I suppose the lesson is that it is probably best to have two accounts when doing anything close to a 'business'. One account for personal daily expenditure and the other for the business.

Not that that helps the OP.

The_pc_tech

I suspect the whole account is frozen to prevent the holder from sending or receiving any more funds as if you were involved in an illegal trade I doubt it would be much trouble for those you traded with to extend you a short term loan and the aim is of course to make such illegal trades as difficult as possible which as far as I am concerned is fair enough.

Unfortunately the OP has found themselves wound up in the middle of something but Santander may also be a tad unhappy with a personal account being used for regular high value transfers.

This kind of situation is the reason why I am taking my time to research issues before setting up my own business and will open a business account before I put any other things in motion as life without banking facilities is somewhat hard these days.

dalesrider

Gentoo365 wrote: »

What I do not understand is why they freeze the whole account. Surely the bank can confirm that some of the money is genuinely clean (e.g. the last salary payment) and release that.

The department that the OP needs to speak to are the fraud prevention team, and the best option is to try to at least reduce the 'frozen' part of the account to the funds in dispute.
.

Whole account is frozen while it is being invistigated for a good reason.
Its stops cash being taken out and then the acc owner doing a runner.
Add in once moeny is mixed into a account there is no clean/dirty. It is all the same.

Also if someone like HMRC is involved. If they are owed money it can stay frozen till resolved.

I would say that the Op has been talking to the correct fraud team. As you would never get me discussing this type of fraud with one of our customers, just the same as the team that deal with this type of stuff will not discuss card fraud.
To many bits of internal/legal process to keep upto speed on in each area without trying to keep up with other area's.

I suppose the lesson is that it is probably best to have two accounts when doing anything close to a 'business'. One account for personal daily expenditure and the other for the business.

Is the best advice.
Never mix anything like this with you day to day banking... It will bit you on the backside one day.
At least in a seperate acc. You have a complete tally of in's 7 outs and know exactly where you stand.

Leblanc_2

I think you will be in for much greater hassle and problems in your dealings with Santander.
As a family we had significant problems trying to obtain access to a relatives savings after death. This was despite all our actions and paperwork being in order.
They never returned phone calls. They were generally aggressive, unhelpful, incompetent and obstructive at every turn.
It took some time and persistence before everything was sorted out.
Due to our experience and exposure to Santander practices and incompetent staff as an entire family we would never ever use Santander as a bank.

Azelphur

I agree with a lot of what people are saying

I already have a Lloyds bank account open and am moving all my day to day stuff into it, I have a Lloyds business account which I will use for trading as soon as the forms arrive, I will open up a few more bank accounts and have money nests in various locations to ensure I'm more financially secure in the future. I'm tempted to say these are actions everybody should take, not just me. I've heard so many stories about banks loosing/holding peoples money like this for various reasons.

I don't think I'm under money laundering investigation, otherwise they wouldn't have released any of my money. That said I can't really respond to a money laundering allegation until one has been made, so I will cross that bridge if/when I get to it.

I am probably riding a fine line between a public order offence and legally arguing for myself. But unfortunately it's the only thing Santander have responded to so far, I spent the first two days being polite, reasonable, and trying to get any form sense out of them, upon realising that I was being fed multiple lies, and that they didn't have any intention to hold up their side of agreements at all, I decided that being angry was the best approach, and that approach did get me £2,000 and save me from loosing my new flat. So I stand by that decision.

As for identity checks, we've been planning on implementing identity checks for large trades which should improve the situation, that said, the responsibility for performing a proper identity check ultimately sits with the senders bank and not me.

Believe me I won't be going and getting myself arrested, they asked me to leave and I did, if the police were called I certainly wouldn't be fighting with the police (Heck, I'm a typical geek build, it'd be utterly fruitless me trying to fight a police officer, I'm not stupid)

In response to bitcoins being a fad, who knows, really? They may well be gone tomorrow, I'm banking that they will be around for a while. If it all goes wrong, I have to find a new job. But then doesn't that go for any job really? I'm making a go of it and will see what happens, if it all goes wrong, I'll have to find money elsewhere, that's life.

Also in response to Gentoo365, I agree with that too, I have been trying to get the bank to release the funds not in dispute, and they have been refusing. I understand the requirement to ensure I havn't stolen the funds, I do not understand the requirement to hold every penny I own and be entirely nonchalant about my finances and housing situation.

@Leblanc, this is exactly how I would describe my experience with Santander, much like you I have provided them with the paperwork they requested, and again like you they have been all of the things you said, on top of outright lying to my face on multiple occasions. I too have had family members who have had issues with Santander holding money for ridiculous amounts of time.

Hopefully I can get this resolved tomorrow morning though, will keep you all updated.

anoncol

Do you actually trade in bitcoins as your living? Were you before you got your business account? Have you been declaring everything on your tax forms?

Azelphur

anoncol wrote: »

Do you actually trade in bitcoins as your living? Were you before you got your business account? Have you been declaring everything on your tax forms?

I'm switching from unemployed to bitcoin trading as a living, I was trading before I got my business account, but only as a hobby, once I realised I'd built up a decent network of connections to buy and sell large quantities of bitcoin, I decided to go full time, declare a business, and start talking to the HMRC about how to pay tax on it. Bitcoin trading is obviously not for the faint of heart, stuff like this happens regularly, but I get by rather well

I have only been doing it for a few months, so no tax forms as of yet.

dalesrider

Azelphur wrote: »

As for identity checks, we've been planning on implementing identity checks for large trades which should improve the situation, that said, the responsibility for performing a proper identity check ultimately sits with the senders bank and not me.

.

NO. It sits with you.
Hacked account and you will be out of pocket for any sale. As that account holders bank will claim the money back.
Which could just be the reason that your account is frozen now.


Given that you are selling through a 3rd party. They should be making sure that funds a legal and above board. As they are party to the sale.

JuicyJesus

Azelphur wrote: »

I'm switching from unemployed to bitcoin trading as a living

You did know that currency exchange, which is what you will be doing, is a regulated activity, right? You need to register with HMRC as a Money Service Business and be able to demonstrate stringent anti-money laundering controls, as well as having solid customer identification procedures in place (which will include requesting photographic identification for larger trades). Tax is not your only concern here.

There is also the issue that Bitcoin is totally unregulated, and moreover is principally used either for currency speculation or the purchase of illegal goods and services anonymously, creating significant business risks. Not least the fact that whether you want to or not, you will most likely be handling dirty money at some point. Banks do not deal with Bitcoin or businesses based on Bitcoin for precisely this reason.

You don't appear to have thought this through very well.

Azelphur

dalesrider wrote: »

NO. It sits with you.
Hacked account and you will be out of pocket for any sale. As that account holders bank will claim the money back.
Which could just be the reason that your account is frozen now.


Given that you are selling through a 3rd party. They should be making sure that funds a legal and above board. As they are party to the sale.

All evidence I can find online is to the contrary to this, do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

If money is taken from your bank account fraudulently, your bank must refund it unless it can show you have been grossly negligent. Unless it can show that the fraudulent transaction should be investigated further (to establish whether or not you were negligent) it must refund the money within days.

However, there’s no such obligation on the bank if you buy something from a person or company that turns out to be fraudulent.

source