Santander trying to steal £14,200 from me

JuicyJesus

Oh, and in case you doubt me (and my post which is at the end of the previous page which basically says "you're in deep sh*t"):

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/mlr/getstarted/register/msb.htm

The term Money Service Business has a special meaning under the Money Laundering Regulations 2007, which came into force on 15 December 2007. Under the regulations, your business is a Money Service Business if it does one or more of the following:

acts as a bureau de change - even if this is on a ship that isn't always in UK territorial waters

Don't think you're acting as a bureau de change? Tough, because it also applies to any business that:

transmits money, or any representation of money, in any way (just collecting and delivering money as a 'cash courier' isn't transmitting money)

...

HMRC is the supervisory body for most Money Service Businesses under the Money Laundering Regulations. If you run a Money Service Business it's your responsibility to register with HMRC unless you're already supervised by the Financial Services Authority (FSA) for the purposes of the Money Laundering Regulations. You mustn't act as a Money Service Business until you're either registered with HMRC or supervised by the FSA.

JuicyJesus

Azelphur wrote: »

All evidence I can find online is to the contrary to this, do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

So, if someone sends you money from a hacked bank account, you should just be able to keep the money?

Erm, no. The sending bank will notify the receiving one to allow them to deal with their customer as they see fit. Receiving stolen monies is not a small thing.

Oh, and as an addendum - yes, it IS your responsibility to identify your source of funds, as part of your responsibilities as a (putative) Money Service Business. The sending bank's job is to identify their customer - your job is to identify yours.

Azelphur

Please stop trying to play internet lawyer folks, I have a real lawyer advising me on these issues.

HMRC currently considers bitcoin a voucher and not a currency (I am one of a number of people fighting to change this), so it's not subject to these regulations, but even if bitcoin was considered a currency, ID is only required for transactions greater than £10,000. You also didn't even read what you posted, I've mentioned before that I have only recently started doing this, the page you yourself linked says that your total turnover from these money service activities mustn't be more than £64,000 a year, I have not turned over £64,000 total yet.

JuicyJesus wrote: »

So, if someone sends you money from a hacked bank account, you should just be able to keep the money?

Erm, no. The sending bank will notify the receiving one to allow them to deal with their customer as they see fit. Receiving stolen monies is not a small thing.

Please read all of what I posted, just not part of it. It clearly states that the bank must refund it when fraudulent activity has occurred, the reason for my current holdups is the investigation (again, as mentioned in the page I linked). The bank is liable, not me. I have heard this from the FSO and from my Lawyer.

JuicyJesus

Azelphur wrote: »

HMRC currently considers bitcoin a voucher and not a currency

HMRC wrote:

transmits money, or any representation of money

Irregardless of the above clearly including BTC, the only source I can find for Bitcoin being considered a voucher is you, in an IRC channel. Everything else I've seen suggests it is like a foreign currency.

the page you yourself linked says that your total turnover from these money service activities mustn't be more than £64,000 a year, I have not turned over £64,000 total yet.

But it also says that you have to meet ALL of the conditions, of which one is that less than 5% of your turnover must come from MSB activities. If you are doing Bitcoin trading as your main business, more than 5% will come from it, so you have to register. You also have to pass a fit and proper test, and given that your principal dealings are going to be with an unregulated currency and that you seem to be looking for excuses not to identify your customers, I would wager you would not pass it.

If you want to be a test case for whether MSB regulations apply to Bitcoin, go right ahead though - I'm sure there's plenty of Bitcoin lovers who will gladly foot your legal expenses.

Please read all of what I posted, just not part of it. It clearly states that the bank must refund it when fraudulent activity has occurred, the reason for my current holdups is the investigation (again, as mentioned in the page I linked). The bank is liable, not me. I have heard this from the FSO and from my Lawyer.

First of all, who are the FSO? I'm sure you mean Financial Ombudsman Service, however their frontline workers are notorious for telling people what they want to hear.

The bank must refund fraudulent activity, yes. But that does not mean the people who have received the fraudulent money may keep it or that the bank should be out of pocket where the funds are retrievable. If you do a chargeback for debit card fraud, the funds are clawed back from the retailer - it isn't fair that they should keep the proceeds of fraud when, really, they should have done more checks on the identity of their customers (this is why fraud checking systems are in more use across e-commerce these days). The same applies here.

Also if your lawyer is the same one who is telling you the same stuff about the Money Service Business regulations which is contradicted by HMRC's website, I would suggest finding another one.

Azelphur

For the second time, please stop trying to play internet lawyer, you are wrong. https://www.dropbox.com/s/wmpjyym7xztqygx/IMG_20130324_131647.jpg I obviously can't register as an MSB until Bitcoin is acknowledged as a currency, which is something I'm working on!

I'm not here for legal advice surrounding my business, I have a lawyer for that. I'm here to chronicle my problems with Santander, and to gather any advice people may have for resolving my problems with Santander.

JuicyJesus

Your problems with Santander will be resolved as soon as they have finished investigating why you have been receiving stolen money. Not before.

innovate

Azelphur wrote: »

I'm not here for legal advice surrounding my business, I have a lawyer for that. I'm here to chronicle my problems with Santander, and to gather any advice people may have for resolving my problems with Santander.

Why do you need a bunch of anonymous people on the Internet to advise you on a fairly fundamental matter like a [business] bank account if you have a lawyer for "legal advice surrounding my business"? Why doesn't your lawyer quietly resolve the banking issues for you? Did you not ask him/her to? If not, why not? If you did, why do you need the advice of a bunch of anonymous people...............

Azelphur

innovate wrote: »

Why do you need a bunch of anonymous people on the Internet to advise you on a fairly fundamental matter like a [business] bank account if you have a lawyer for "legal advice surrounding my business"? Why doesn't your lawyer quietly resolve the banking issues for you? Did you not ask him/her to? If not, why not? If you did, why do you need the advice of a bunch of anonymous people...............

I do not need your advice, I merely ask for it because I value the advice of other people. It never hurts to ask for advice from as many people as are willing to give it. Who knows, maybe somebody here has some gems of knowledge that I havn't thought of.

I have said multiple times now, which indicates you havn't read the thread, that I have already opened a business account and was in the process of moving to it when this happened.

I have of course asked my lawyer to investigate the situation, which he is in the process of doing. Another thing I have also mentioned previously in the thread.

Please at least read the thread before making comments like these, it's entirely non-constructive. I find myself continually re-iterating the same statements such as being in the process of switching to a business account, having a lawyer, etc. Please stay on topic, as I just mentioned I'm not here to discuss how I set my business up here. The simple fact is that at current there is no legal precedent set regarding bitcoin trading, and I know full well it's a minefield, everybody has different opinions on how it should be treated, what we should do tax wise, etc. The only way I will know for sure is to wait until my lawyer has finished talking to the relevant organisations (HMRC, MSB, etc)

A lot of people on this thread seem to be dead set on picking holes in my story rather than being supportive and offering any constructive comments towards me getting my money back, I'm not a fan of that

Tomorrow the bank opens again, the bank manager and the manager on the phone told me it'll be resolved tomorrow, I don't hold out much hope, but will be going in branch tomorrow to find out!

innovate

I have read all the posts in this thread, and I am not dead set on picking holes in your story - - I just notice that you aggressively keep mentioning you have a lawyer. Therefore I still don't understand why you ever came on an Internet forum with your problem.

Though it is still unclear whether you have tasked your lawyer with resolving the banking issue. And if you have not, it would be interesting to understand why you didn't.

Azelphur

innovate wrote: »

I have read all the posts in this thread, and I am not dead set on picking holes in your story - - I just notice that you aggressively keep mentioning you have a lawyer. Therefore I still don't understand why you ever came on an Internet forum with your problem.

Though it is still unclear whether you have tasked your lawyer with resolving the banking issue. And if you have not, it would be interesting to understand why you didn't.

omg, you didn't even read the comment your replying to! what part of "I have of course asked my lawyer to investigate the situation, which he is in the process of doing" was unclear?

I didn't mean to mention "aggressively" that I have a lawyer, I was asked if I had a lawyer, I replied that yes, I do.

Can we please stop asking the same questions over and over again? It's getting very tedious. I try to answer and reply to all the questions people are having about this, but people seem to be raising the same points over and over again (lawyer, business account, tax, msb) all of which I have already replied to, unless you have something new to add, please stop. It's off-topic (If you want to discuss bitcoin related law I suggest you head to the bitcoin forums)

I'm getting very tempted to abandon thread to be honest, I came here for decent advice/discussion and am instead just getting people asking the same set of questions over and over.