Question Time Last night

Thrugelmir

Originally Posted by HAMISH_MCTAVISH
This time is no different however, and as the recovery progresses the nationalists will be put back in the box until the next time desperate, naive and gullible people feel the urge to blame someone else for their problems.

No independence for Scotland then?

RJP33

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Mass immigration has been a benefit for the vast majority.

But protectionism, be it in trade or in people, is not the answer.

You forgot to qualify this as skilled migration, which is proven to be of great benefit. Whereas uncontrolled unskilled migration has been a disaster for low income earners and tradesmen.

Two totally different things, most developed countries settle quite happily just for the first.

robmatic

RJP33 wrote: »

You forgot to qualify this as skilled migration, which is proven to be of great benefit. Whereas uncontrolled unskilled migration has been a disaster for low income earners and tradesmen.

Two totally different things, most developed countries settle quite happily just for the first.

Why would unskilled immigration be a disaster for tradesmen?

RJP33

robmatic wrote: »

Why would unskilled immigration be a disaster for tradesmen?

By ‘unskilled’ I mean those is who under normal circumstances wouldn’t qualify for a work visa (unless there’s a shortage in the UK), obviously tradesmen are skilled.

The new arrivals heavily undercut those already in Britain, effectively destroying their business.

robmatic

RJP33 wrote: »

By ‘unskilled’ I mean those is who under normal circumstances wouldn’t qualify for a work visa (unless there’s a shortage in the UK), obviously tradesmen are skilled.

The new arrivals heavily undercut those already in Britain, effectively destroying their business.

So people with a trade suffer only when 'skilled' workers arrive in the UK...

Same applies when we import academically qualified workers. Allowing in doctors, engineers, scientists etc. depresses the wage expectations of the doctors, engineers, scientists etc. who are already here. What's the difference?

RJP33

robmatic wrote: »

So people with a trade suffer only when 'skilled' workers arrive in the UK...

Same applies when we import academically qualified workers. Allowing in doctors, engineers, scientists etc. depresses the wage expectations of the doctors, engineers, scientists etc. who are already here. What's the difference?

You’re talking about 2 different things here – one is a practical trade which we have no shortage of, the other is highly skilled and paid requiring very high level qualifications which very few people are qualified for and we have a chronic shortage of.

There’s no evidence to suggest that the second group depresses the wages of people in the UK. A study in Australia showed they were worth billions to the economy over the long term. There are a lot less and demand is high, they’re usually on the skilled shortage list and are highly desirable for the UK.

On the other side it’s simple supply and demand; chuck in a million people at the bottom of the labour market and it’ll hold down wages and make it more difficult to get jobs, also adding to the benefits bill. For tradesmen they suddenly have to compete with EU builders massively undercutting them.

In what way are unskilled workers or tradesmen not addressing a specific shortage desirable for the UK?

robmatic

RJP33 wrote: »

You’re talking about 2 different things here – one is a practical trade which we have no shortage of, the other is highly skilled and paid requiring very high level qualifications which very few people are qualified for and we have a chronic shortage of.

There’s no evidence to suggest that the second group depresses the wages of people in the UK. A study in Australia showed they were worth billions to the economy over the long term. There are a lot less and demand is high, they’re usually on the skilled shortage list and are highly desirable for the UK.

On the other side it’s simple supply and demand; chuck in a million people at the bottom of the labour market and it’ll hold down wages and make it more difficult to get jobs, also adding to the benefits bill. For tradesmen they suddenly have to compete with EU builders massively undercutting them.

In what way are unskilled workers or tradesmen not addressing a specific shortage desirable for the UK?

I don't really see the difference. If our tradesmen are massively more expensive in comparison to other countries, this implies that their skills are in short supply relative to demand.

What constitutes a chronic shortage anyway, and how does restricted immigration help resolve the lack of skilled workers in a particular area? If highly skilled, highly paid workers aren't coming here now when we have unrestricted movement of labour within the EU and strong cultural ties with Commonwealth countries, this will remain the case if we start restricting immigration even more.

RJP33

The difference is one is desirable for the UK since they're proven to provide massive economic benefits or cover chronic shortagess, the other isn't necessarily. We don't really need more tradesmen but there is a shortage of the others you listed.

The usual immigration policy of countries like Australia, Canada etc is a point based system overall and skill shortage list which gets those people fasttracked. They are coming to the UK and we have this system now for outside-EU, just not for EU countries where skills have no relevance to their ability to settle here.

Either way we should have the ability to pick and choose like other developed countries.

ILW

Have not the EU now stated a policy of moving unemployment from one country to another and allowing benefits to be claimed.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

RJP33 wrote: »

we should have the ability to pick and choose like other developed countries.

What, like....

France?

Germany?

Holland?

Austria?

etc....