Question Time Last night

bigheadxx

RJP33 wrote: »

Absolutely, it's disgraceful that anyone suggesting not letting in half of Eastern Europe, of no benefit to the UK, is now somehow a racist. Utterly pathetic attempt to stifle any rationale consideration.

Nobody with any sense is opposed to immigration, however most people with any sense would conclude we let in those with the skills we need and benefit from and we should have control of our borders. The UK government are elected to serve in the interest of the British people.

The other unfortunate fact is Europe needs us more than we need them. We'd be just fine outside the EU.

Unfortunately British governments always serve the interests of the British state which is not the same thing. The British state sees itself in a "world power" role, militarily strong and in the economic leader club. The state requires growth to survive and growth requires immigration. The British people can survive without immigration but the British state cannot.

Graham_Devon

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Except of course, that's just nonsense.

The only thing he's putting first is his narrow minded 'little Englander' viewpoint of the world, and his rabble rousing populist drivel that masquerades as policy.

Immigration and being in the EU are both very good for the UK, and indeed when you look at the objective academic research, the benefits outweigh the costs by quite some margin.



Any of the various nationalists will inevitably get compared to Hitler at some point, however in this case it's simply not appropriate.

I don't actually believe the core UKIP leaders are particularly racist.

Isolationist, protectionist, backwards-looking, and perhaps even xenophobic. But not overtly racist.

They're just very effective at picking up support from those who are. And providing them with a less offensive, and so more dangerous, platform to disguise and hide their racist views as 'legitimate concerns about immigration'.


It certainly is.

Hitler had far more charisma, personality, credibility and indeed support than Farage could ever dream of.

Which is probably a good thing....

Because nationalistic and isolationist policies in Europe usually don't end well.

Some of your posts are starting to border on disgusting. I simply don't know how you can get any support for them.

Sampong

I think he passed that point long ago....

Sampong

bigheadxx wrote: »

Unfortunately British governments always serve the interests of the British state which is not the same thing. The British state sees itself in a "world power" role, militarily strong and in the economic leader club. The state requires growth to survive and growth requires immigration. The British people can survive without immigration but the British state cannot.

Who though, has ever suggested we reduce net immigration to zero?

It needs to be controlled - it's that simple.

There has to be an upper limit with which the infrastructure of the country can cope.

9 hour waiting times in Accident and Emergency departments aren't really up to scratch....

Local councils spending £43 million over 3 years on translation costs is just utter madness - and I struggle to see how that contributes to growth....

etc...

etc....

CLAPTON

Sampong wrote: »

We definitely need the right kind of Immigration, we have massive skills shortages in certain areas which we need immigration for. What I have always found dumbfounding is the fact that anyone who supports a sensible immigration policy which would allow us to govern out own borders has been branded a racist. This is despite not being opposed to immigration full stop. I literally cannot believe anyone fell for this ludicrous propaganda.

The problem with open borders to the EU is that we have no say who comes and who doesn't. The country is open to all as long as you have an EU passport - and that includes people from European countries who they would rather be rid of.

which skills do we have a massive shortage?

Sampong

CLAPTON wrote: »

which skills do we have a massive shortage?

Skilled orchestral musicians for example. Need to be a string player. We have enough Brass musicians and percussionists.

Ballet dancers is another. If you are a Ballet dancing orchestral musician who can also weld I reckon you're set;

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/workingintheuk/shortageoccupationlistnov11.pdf

What we don't need is thousands of low skilled workers pushing our native born onto welfare, driving down wages that the taxpayer ends up subsidizing the wealth potential of greedy corporations. Who are happy to drive down wages and operate warehouses in the UK where one of the skills needed for low skilled job is to be fluent in polish.

Sampong

Incidentally - plenty of vocational areas in that list where the government could introduce schemes to educate and train young and/or unskilled people, get them off the scrap heap, back into work, fill skills gaps, make the world a happier place, build a bright future........

So why aren't we doing it?

bigheadxx

Sampong wrote: »

Who though, has ever suggested we reduce net immigration to zero?

It needs to be controlled - it's that simple.

There has to be an upper limit with which the infrastructure of the country can cope.

9 hour waiting times in Accident and Emergency departments aren't really up to scratch....

Local councils spending £43 million over 3 years on translation costs is just utter madness - and I struggle to see how that contributes to growth....

etc...

etc....

It needed to be controlled, its too late now. Is UKIP suggesting repatriation of East Europeans? No. Are we going to have 100,000's of Romanians and Bulgarians in 2014? No, most who want t to be here are already here, legally or illegally.

£43 million spent employing people who would otherwise not be employed. Removing 1 million immigrants from the payroll would have a major impact on GDP as would removing a million people from the demand for public services.

The British state needs immigrants to support growth due to the demographic changes currently taking place. The UK has engineered population growth and a baby boom to ensure that the UK has at least some economic clout in the future (UK GDP will overtake Germany by 2050) and to continue its borrow, spend, boom, recession cycle.

For the UK, the European project is over. We no longer need to be in the club and our objective, the continuation of the British state, has been completed. Our consumer economy is on course to flourish in the future and we will have a population which has close ties to the East European countries which will also support economic growth.

So whilst EU withdrawal is a certainty, controlled immigration, is not going to have any effect on the current EU settlers in the UK no matter what UKIP says.

Thrugelmir

Originally Posted by HAMISH_MCTAVISH
Hitler had far more charisma, personality, credibility and indeed support than Farage could ever dream of.

Becareful what you say. The roots of Nationalsozialismus were born some 15 years earlier. In Europe there's a rise in membership of Nationalist parties. There's some way to go before everything is resolved.

RJP33

bigheadxx wrote: »

The British state needs immigrants to support growth due to the demographic changes currently taking place. The UK has engineered population growth and a baby boom to ensure that the UK has at least some economic clout in the future (UK GDP will overtake Germany by 2050) and to continue its borrow, spend, boom, recession cycle.

For the UK, the European project is over. We no longer need to be in the club and our objective, the continuation of the British state, has been completed. Our consumer economy is on course to flourish in the future and we will have a population which has close ties to the East European countries which will also support economic growth.

So whilst EU withdrawal is a certainty, controlled immigration, is not going to have any effect on the current EU settlers in the UK no matter what UKIP says.

I’d suggest a sensible policy would be an amnesty for those EU citizens who’ve been here for some time (and paid taxes / contributed), or those that have particular skills. Or you could just say no more from now on.

We do need skilled immigrants like you say, there was a study done in Australia (sensible immigration policy) that skilled people contribute billions of $ long term as they’re generally hard working, young, driven to success. Exactly the sort of people you’d want.

And you’re right about Europe, they need us more than we need them. Our trade with the EU could easily continue with a free trade deal without any political union, is in surplus and is diminishing all the time as a % of GDP. The idea that we’d lose loads of jobs if we left the EU is just scaremongering.