Measles & MMR

securityguy

j.e.j. wrote: »

No-one at the time had any reason to think thalidomide was unsafe.

That's not entirely true. It was refused approval in the USA, in Austria, in Switzerland and elsewhere, because there were suspicions from a very early stage. Frances Oldham Kelsey, who refused its approval in the USA is still alive, aged 98, having only retired from the FDA a few years ago.

But at the time, drug safety testing was sketchy in the extreme, and Kelsey refused approval to Thalidomide more by instinct and intuition than by evidence. To argue that thalidomide shows current drug safety testing does not work is akin to proposing that the succession of Comet crashes through the 1950s shows that you shouldn't go to Tenerife for your holiday.

Thalidomide was, in most of the countries where it was approved, an over-the-counter remedy, purely on the basis of the manufacturer's profoundly flawed safety data. Compare and contrast that with how long it took for Ibuprofen to get from obscure prescription-only drug to over-the-counter staple: it took close to twenty years of safety data.

Steve059

notanewuser wrote: »

Depends where you are. Nowhere does the single jabs in Wales, paid for or not.

And why should they, when the triple vaccine is safe and quicker? And there's less chance of the course of 6 jabs not being completed and being ineffective.

Oh, and doesn't Wakefield, the discredited ex-doctor behind the false scare, hold the patents on the single vaccines?

j.e.j.

securityguy wrote: »

But at the time, drug safety testing was sketchy in the extreme, and Kelsey refused approval to Thalidomide more by instinct and intuition than by evidence. To argue that thalidomide shows current drug safety testing does not work is akin to proposing that the succession of Comet crashes through the 1950s shows that you shouldn't go to Tenerife for your holiday.

I wasn't so much arguing that drug safety testing does not work, just that whatever evidence we have today may or may not be the case in years to come. As someone said, we can only go by what we know today.

You mention instinct and intuition. Maybe it's this that's stopping some parents getting their kids vaccinated, I don't know. Or it could just be fear, because of what they've been told about the MMR jab. Once that fear is in someone's mind it's hard to get rid of.

lostinrates

Person_one wrote: »

I mean what I said, that the trendy idea of 'my opinion and my choices are always just as valid and worthy as anybody else's' is a modern invention and isn't true.

I agree with this, but still argue for choice. For more than one reason, ideologically. But ultimately the most important consideration in my mind for check is we know that sometimes we the majority choose wrong. Often science developers in ways we have failed to predict, and things that were super at the time seemingly, turn out to be 'poor choices' in the longer term. Survival in a very Darwinian sense, depends on diversity, and choice is part of the way we are diverse.

That said, if I had kids they would be vaccinated.

Errata

securityguy wrote: »

That's not entirely true. It was refused approval in the USA, in Austria, in Switzerland and elsewhere, because there were suspicions from a very early stage. Frances Oldham Kelsey, who refused its approval in the USA is still alive, aged 98, having only retired from the FDA a few years ago.

But at the time, drug safety testing was sketchy in the extreme, and Kelsey refused approval to Thalidomide more by instinct and intuition than by evidence. To argue that thalidomide shows current drug safety testing does not work is akin to proposing that the succession of Comet crashes through the 1950s shows that you shouldn't go to Tenerife for your holiday.

Thalidomide was, in most of the countries where it was approved, an over-the-counter remedy, purely on the basis of the manufacturer's profoundly flawed safety data. Compare and contrast that with how long it took for Ibuprofen to get from obscure prescription-only drug to over-the-counter staple: it took close to twenty years of safety data.

I think Kelsey's stance wasn't instinct, but about the fact that Thalidomide hadn't been tested on pregnant animals.

themull1

heartbreak_star wrote: »

Back up those statements with evidence please.

Any parent who would choose single vaccine or no vaccine is !!!!less and selfish. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the MMR vaccine. It is safe and gives overall better protection and immunity levels than the single vaccines.

Also, the single vaccines aren't licensed for general use in this country.

HBS x

I got my eldest daughter immunised with the first part of the MMR in 2000, then all the scaremongering came out about autism, and most of us decided not to get the second jab, my second daughter did not get immunised at all, i just got them done last week, its all very well blaming the parents from 1999/2000, but at the time, there was genuine fear. My friend at work got told last week that if their kids were at nursery, they could get the second jab much earlier, but i dont know the timescales.

koalamummy

Person_one wrote: »

Stop digging now.

Lots of nurses have doctorates, there are even some out there with the job title of 'research nurse'! :eek:

However, even an inexperienced staff nurse or student should know enough about evaluating research evidence to make informed decisions about things like vaccination. That's what we're talking about, right?

I am one of the nurses with a doctorate....it is most amusing when I am referred to as doctor nurse ......! :rotfl:

meritaten

Person_one wrote: »

For most of us its 'nice to avoid' but for a small number its a real killer and they rely on the rest of us to keep them safe! Healthy people do still die from it too, look at the 25 year old in Wales.

Its important not to get complacent about these infections, we've got used to them not really being a threat because of the miracle of vaccination, not because they aren't dangerous!

Person-one, that is irresponsible to say that the 25yr old died of measles. He did have the measles virus, but the post-mortem was 'inconclusive'! he had also been hospitalised for a severe asthma attack a couple of weeks previously. please get your facts right - and stop scaremongering! its bad enough here in South East Wales with all the 'hysteria in the media'!

Person_one

meritaten wrote: »

Person-one, that is irresponsible to say that the 25yr old died of measles. He did have the measles virus, but the post-mortem was 'inconclusive'! he had also been hospitalised for a severe asthma attack a couple of weeks previously. please get your facts right - and stop scaremongering! its bad enough here in South East Wales with all the 'hysteria in the media'!

I'll admit I only read the headlines and assumed, fair cop.

However, it isn't scaremongering to say that measles can be devastating for seemingly healthy people, it can. Measles is scary, that's not my doing!

heartbreak_star

I'll be pretty interested to see if he was "vaccinated against measles" or "had the MMR", from a science point of view

HBS x