storage heaters/electric central heating or gas?

m_13

hamtune wrote: »

Has anyone tried Kalriel heating? The information on their website is certainly encouraging and if I were replacing storage heaters, they would certainly be on my wish list.
http://www.kalirel.co.uk/

We installed Kalirel heaters into our all-electric flat when we bought it in April this year. The previous heating was ceiling heating which didn't work at all. The flat had been allowed to get damp and wet by the last tenants who had no heating source at all. We had black mould growing up the walls

We switched to Economy 10 as recommended and run the dishwasher and washing machine in the afternoon when the electricity is cheaper. We have a 2KW 'radiator' in the lounge, 1KW in the main bedroom, 750w in the second bedroom and kitchen, 500w in the hall and a 750w towel rail in the bathroom. Our immersion heater runs in the cheap period during the night.

We use an OWL to monitor our electricity consumption and have a Cyclope programmer. The flat is in zones (which share the same programming and target temperature) which come on at various times and if we're going out we can simply tell the programmer to stop heating until x time (hours or days) and then come back on. Our spare bedroom runs independently from the zone and comes on in the morning and when I'm working but not at night unless we have guests and only on for an hour in the morning at weekends so I can get dressed and undressed in the warm. We do have a decorative electric fire in the lounge but it's never been on other than to show off the flame effect!

We pay £55 per month on direct debit to Southern Electric and our winter usage is working out at around £2.50 per day including heating, light, cooking and power. I work from home so my laptop etc is on from 9.00 until at least 17.30 weekdays and we bake fresh bread every day (on peak rates!).

Having had storage heaters before I knew that I didn't want them again as I was red hot in the night when they were charging but freezing cold by the evening as I wanted heat whilst I was working from home in the day. It may well be that we could have obtained the same level of heat from oil radiators but I'm really happy with system we bought. The radiators are much admired as they look ordinary and take up little room. They are hard wired into the circuits previously used by the ceiling heating which used thicker cable so can support a 2KW load (or so the electrician told me). They stay warm for around 30 minutes after the power is switched off by the timer (which runs via bluetooth and controls them all from my settee).

The system might not suit everybody but I'm enjoying the warmth from a radiator looky likely as I write and no, i have no connection to Kalirel.

paceinternet

m_13, could you post your electicity rates per kwh and daily kwh useage over a few days so that readers can understand how this adds up?

Thanks

Cardew

m_13 wrote: »

We installed Kalirel heaters into our all-electric flat when we bought it in April this year. The previous heating was ceiling heating which didn't work at all. The flat had been allowed to get damp and wet by the last tenants who had no heating source at all. We had black mould growing up the walls

We switched to Economy 10 as recommended and run the dishwasher and washing machine in the afternoon when the electricity is cheaper. We have a 2KW 'radiator' in the lounge, 1KW in the main bedroom, 750w in the second bedroom and kitchen, 500w in the hall and a 750w towel rail in the bathroom. Our immersion heater runs in the cheap period during the night.

We use an OWL to monitor our electricity consumption and have a Cyclope programmer. The flat is in zones (which share the same programming and target temperature) which come on at various times and if we're going out we can simply tell the programmer to stop heating until x time (hours or days) and then come back on. Our spare bedroom runs independently from the zone and comes on in the morning and when I'm working but not at night unless we have guests and only on for an hour in the morning at weekends so I can get dressed and undressed in the warm. We do have a decorative electric fire in the lounge but it's never been on other than to show off the flame effect!

We pay £55 per month on direct debit to Southern Electric and our winter usage is working out at around £2.50 per day including heating, light, cooking and power. I work from home so my laptop etc is on from 9.00 until at least 17.30 weekdays and we bake fresh bread every day (on peak rates!).

Having had storage heaters before I knew that I didn't want them again as I was red hot in the night when they were charging but freezing cold by the evening as I wanted heat whilst I was working from home in the day. It may well be that we could have obtained the same level of heat from oil radiators but I'm really happy with system we bought. The radiators are much admired as they look ordinary and take up little room. They are hard wired into the circuits previously used by the ceiling heating which used thicker cable so can support a 2KW load (or so the electrician told me). They stay warm for around 30 minutes after the power is switched off by the timer (which runs via bluetooth and controls them all from my settee).

The system might not suit everybody but I'm enjoying the warmth from a radiator looky likely as I write and no, i have no connection to Kalirel.

A couple of questions please.

You have a total heating of only 5.75 kW for a 2 bed flat, I appreciate that you have only been in the flat since April, but were you advised that this is sufficient for winter? It seems small to me.

May I ask what was the total cost for the complete installation?

Also a comment. As the price of E7 and E10 has risen a great deal recently(particularly the off-peak prices) it would be worth your while to record accurately your consumption on the different rates for the first year.

It may well be that your bills will be lower using a 'normal' (i.e. 24/7) tariff; particularly as you work from home.

Pistol_Pete6969

m_13 wrote: »

We installed Kalirel heaters into our all-electric flat when we bought it in April this year. The previous heating was ceiling heating which didn't work at all. The flat had been allowed to get damp and wet by the last tenants who had no heating source at all. We had black mould growing up the walls

We switched to Economy 10 as recommended and run the dishwasher and washing machine in the afternoon when the electricity is cheaper. We have a 2KW 'radiator' in the lounge, 1KW in the main bedroom, 750w in the second bedroom and kitchen, 500w in the hall and a 750w towel rail in the bathroom. Our immersion heater runs in the cheap period during the night.

We use an OWL to monitor our electricity consumption and have a Cyclope programmer. The flat is in zones (which share the same programming and target temperature) which come on at various times and if we're going out we can simply tell the programmer to stop heating until x time (hours or days) and then come back on. Our spare bedroom runs independently from the zone and comes on in the morning and when I'm working but not at night unless we have guests and only on for an hour in the morning at weekends so I can get dressed and undressed in the warm. We do have a decorative electric fire in the lounge but it's never been on other than to show off the flame effect!

We pay £55 per month on direct debit to Southern Electric and our winter usage is working out at around £2.50 per day including heating, light, cooking and power. I work from home so my laptop etc is on from 9.00 until at least 17.30 weekdays and we bake fresh bread every day (on peak rates!).

Having had storage heaters before I knew that I didn't want them again as I was red hot in the night when they were charging but freezing cold by the evening as I wanted heat whilst I was working from home in the day. It may well be that we could have obtained the same level of heat from oil radiators but I'm really happy with system we bought. The radiators are much admired as they look ordinary and take up little room. They are hard wired into the circuits previously used by the ceiling heating which used thicker cable so can support a 2KW load (or so the electrician told me). They stay warm for around 30 minutes after the power is switched off by the timer (which runs via bluetooth and controls them all from my settee).

The system might not suit everybody but I'm enjoying the warmth from a radiator looky likely as I write and no, i have no connection to Kalirel.

What was your total purchase & installation cost for this system?

Mogz

This is the perfect time for me to jump in from the cold.I've been lurking on this great site for ages, but I've just been looking at Kalirel equipment.

I have a 2 bed flat, almost identical to the one mentioned below. I already have mainly oil filled rads around the house, but nothing is on a timer!

I just did the calcs, Cardew, and my flat requires a total of 6000watts of heating, without taking 10% off for the double glazing we have; I think the recommended calculation techniques underestimate, so I left the 10% off.

One thing I would say is: Panel heaters are useless! we have 2 * 750w panel heaters which give a perceptive heating result of 20% that of our 1000w oil filled heaters. As heating is all about how warm you feel that makes them awful in my book. Cant explain why they are awful they just are.

Kalirel are reasonably expensive. Its looking like about 1.5 to 2 grand to replace my four heaters with a wireless system. I was being lazy and wanted a quick drop in drop out solution. I was going to wire them myself. This installation cost would need to be added to the equipment to get a true cost.

NOT CHEAP!!!!!

I already have a bunch of 1000w oil rads fully functional and 2 of them are sitting unused. As you can imagine, its not money saving to throw away four perfectly good oil rads while upgrading my heating system.

Instead I am doing this:
I am a KNX engineer by trade and in my house the four circuits for heating are running to a separate circuit/fuse board in a cupboard. I have built a little KNX actuator box which connects to a standard electric heating 7 day timer and switches all four circuits on and off when the 7 day timer clicks in etc.

I am also fitting a little Merten switch locally to each radiator junction box (on the wall by each radiator) which is both an on/off switch with a thermostatic rotary knob, so these will be mounted around groundlevel and will locally kill the power when the oil rads achieve the desired room temperature.

Simple but very effective and functional.

This system is not an option for non KNX engineers! I have access to spare parts so I built the entire lot for free and I will configure it myself as well. Hence the money saving aspect.

HOWEVER.

Another option is to use DIMPLEX or GLEN oil filled radiators (or whatever you already have if not on a timer right now), buy a little contactor box which will switch all of your electric heating circuits on/off based on the control output of a standard 30 quid 7 day timer.

The 7 day timer cant switch the lot - what a contactor would do is flip over much more capable relay for each circuit when the 7 day timer kicks in, and could be connected up together so you could switch 8*10amp contactors with one x 1 amp 7 day timer.

Utilising also a little merten thermostat/switch box at each radiator gives you local temperature control as I described earlier.

Clunky, cheap, but effective - and can be serviced and repaired by most electricians. However not a solution for most people - just thought I'd throw the idea out there for any registered electricians in the same boat as me. IT would work, and would allow you spend more of your money on paying for the damned electricity!

Incidentally - gas prices have soared recently. Is Gas CH really that much cheaper now, than a properly configured and set up electric system? Say if you compared a wet CH system between a Gas combi boiler and an electric one, you would eliminate any difference between convenience and performance and we could actually caluclate the cost difference..... just a thought.

espresso

Mogz wrote: »

Incidentally - gas prices have soared recently. Is Gas CH really that much cheaper now, than a properly configured and set up electric system? Say if you compared a wet CH system between a Gas combi boiler and an electric one, you would eliminate any difference between convenience and performance and we could actually caluclate the cost difference..... just a thought.

So how much can you get a kWh of electricity for, compared to a kWh of gas?

Cardew

Mogz

There are 2 issues here.

Firstly when you analyse all of the hype, the only advantage Kalirel, or others of these hugely expensive systems, have is the ability to control your heating; they produce no more heat for your bucks than any other form of electrical heater.

Your system no doubt has much of the functionality of a sophisticated control system.

However, just about every £30 oil filled radiator or convector heater has a thermostat. It is also possible for a few pounds to buy timers - even remote controlled timers, and these will also serve the purpose.

Electricity is generally around 12p/kWh and gas around 4p/kWh.
Given a gas boiler can be anything between 60% and 90% efficient that increases the effective cost of gas to anything between 4.5 to 6.5p
So gas will always be cheaper.

The other big factor with gas is the cost of servicing and repairs/replacement boilers.

Rather than even contemplate spending £1500 to £2000 on a Kalirel type system, it must make sense to consider a Heat Pump system.

Mogz

Cardew wrote: »

Mogz

However, just about every £30 oil filled radiator or convector heater has a thermostat. It is also possible for a few pounds to buy timers - even remote controlled timers, and these will also serve the purpose.

The large majority of oil-rads currently installed in peoples homes, are not fitted with thermostats that perform the same function as you imply. It is a "thermostat" to keep the immersion heater from going constantly. It does not maintain a room temperature. They turn off to stop the rad from overheating if it is left on - that is all! I hear my oil filled rads clicking off when my house is 12 degrees, as it was this morning. (I'd been away for a week).

Granted new rads do tend to have a room thermostat built in but what good is one of these when its attached to the heat source? Not smart.....

To clarify, my post was aimed to describe old but functional oil rads with one of the rotary dials on them - they do not serve the purpose you imply. There really are millions of the things out there - and they go on for 20 years if you dont waggle the rotary dial too often.

The only 7 day timers I could bear sticking on the wall of my lounge in plain view are intended for light switches but can only actuate up to 600mA or thereabouts. I have yet to find a 6 amp contactor that would fit behind a light switch timer in a one gang uk backbox. If anyone knows of one then please enlighten me!

Heat pumps are a great idea for the long term - so is installing a wet system (required for use!), but I'll be selling up in 3 years, so its cheap bodging for me I'm afraid.

200

its an old old question,
but strangley ive made a poll called aircon and 60 percent said aircon was cheaper
to run than gas CH ! maybe instead of these weird storage heaters or pesky radiators,
how about a room aircon instead?

Mogz

Since electric heating is "100% efficient"*, all you would be changing is the method of heat delivery.

As I said earlier in a previous post, oil rads appear to work better "per-watt" than panel heaters - so you might well be right. Logic dictates to me that all you are doing is blowing warm air around (at a cost) instead of letting convection do it for you. This will give the impression of more efficient performance, but will not "get the walls warm" as oil rads do.

I think you will pay more money for the peformance.

* This "100%" is quoted by many people and is correct in terms of oil rads and panel heaters, but not in terms of fan heaters, as not only do their elements glow wasting energy producing light, they also use a fan to move the heat around, so not 100% of the electricity is being used to create heat energy. Aircon units have a fan and an element in them, just like a fan heater.